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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Topic: Percentage of DCPs and Auditoriums 4k?
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 02-07-2019 07:55 PM
Carsten,
Nope...it is always the 4K projectors once has to watch out for. On 2K, the server should only extract the 2K portion to begin with.
However, on a 4K system, if you don't use a 4K PCF, then the scaler will do wacky things with the 4K image (magnify it). If you always use the 4K PCFs, the image is always right but if the DCP is 2K with subtitles, they will be buried below the image so the 2K PCF will tell the projector to place the subtitles relative to a 2K image, not the 4K image.
For IMBs that do scale the image (Rather than the projector) and those that can do their own subtitles, all bets are off on how it will interpret each type of content. One would hope it would be smart in that if it is handling subtitles, it knows where to place them.
The disconnect on a traditional IMB/ICP system is that the subtitles are done by the projector (ICP) the ICP scales the subtitles unless told it is only 2K (I believe the IMB always claims 4K to the projector when the IMB is configured for a 4K projector).
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-08-2019 02:37 AM
There are always possibilities to get it done. There is an old quote that neatly catches the essense:
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway."
So, sending a bunch of tapes or hard drives via courier services will eventually get the job done, if connectivity isn't available. It's still the preferred way we distribute DCPs nowadays, so it does have its merits.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Today it's possible for people living way out in the sticks to get satellite-based Internet with speeds up to 25 megabits per second. How many movie post production studios choose to build way the hell out in the country in places where people have to get their water from underground wells, flush their toilets into septic tanks, have no access to traditional cable TV/Internet infrastructure and are forced to rely on satellite for that kind of stuff? Probably NONE.
Well, you're talking about bean counters yourself... How often do you think that the decision to locate your office somewhere is really made based on all the merits, including the availability of the necessary infrastructure? In practice, this is often really just an afterthought... let the techs figure it out.
And you'd be amazed what locations in what countries are chosen. India for example, has a very active film industry. I know a few production houses that outsource quite a few post production and animation jobs to those locations. And I can assure you, bandwidth in India is a heck of a lot more expensive than in most parts of the "western world".
Satellite links that allow you 1:1 usage of e.g. 25 mbits UP and DOWN in many parts of the world are horrendously expensive (I've been there). And even 25 MBit/s isn't all that great. Let's say with overhead and on a dedicated 1:1 connection you can get a throughput of 3 MByte/s. That's roughly 11,25 GByte/hour or about 270 GByte a day. So, if you want to transfer a Terabyte worth of data, you're already waiting the better parts of 4 days, given the fact that nothing breaks down and you can use those 25 mbit/s exclusively.
As you can see, that's not terribly efficient and a UPS shipment of a bunch of tapes will probably be more efficient and faster in such cases.
quote: Carsten Kurz
We do, however, have a '4k releases' thread in our german 'film-tech equivalent forum', where I am sure all international 4k releases are listed.
Great, at least someone is building somewhat of an archive. Now we only have to look up every second title to see what the original title was. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Carsten Kurz
Film God
Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted 02-08-2019 03:03 AM
Bandwidth doesn't seem to be such an issue any more. First of all, 4k DCPs have the same data rate limit as 2k DCPs, so, in general, they don't need to be larger.
Also, we do receive quite a few DCPs through IP based broadband, using a 200MBit/s cable connection. Very often we receive e.g. a 3D OV, although we don't have a 3D system. Typically, we get foreign language VFs even if we don't request them. Obviously, it is easier to distribute full content packages like this than to care for the unnecessary transmission load.
- Carsten
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-08-2019 03:42 AM
Yes, much of Europe is currently either transitioning or already receiving their DCPs via IP, although there are still plenty of locations, receiving their DCPs on disk.
But, it's DCPs you're talking about, which are already compressed. It's not raw video data and assets, like in VFX or post.
Also, your cable connection might be 200 mbit/s down (on a shared profile with the rest of the neighborhood, which in some cases can be a problem), but how much upstream do you get? 20 MBit? or if you're lucky, maybe 40 MBit?
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Carsten Kurz
Film God
Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted 02-08-2019 04:14 AM
I don't care for upstream, as long as downstream is fast enough for DCP transmission. This is a dedicated line, and few things travel up.
As for 4k post production - yes, 4k streaming, UHD, and IMAX/Dolby Cinema may enforce 4k post production for mainstream. I remember Star Wars 8 was 4k.
If independent movies can be created in 4k, it shouldn't be an issue for the big releases as well nowadays. But, there are many factors. Many VFX loaded movies have their VFX jobs split out to many different VFX companies, and each one has to comply with the general 4k production line. It is not easy to qualify the results for 'real 4k', or 'close to 4k', or a simple uprez before it's handed back.
There are some creatives who claim that 4k is mostly wasted for feature film production because all feature films follow the 180degree shutter rule at 24fps, which means that the largest part of these movies comes with natural motion blur that reduces 'resolution' even below 1k.
Now, even blur shows jaggies if it is sampled at lower resolutions...
- Carsten
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 02-08-2019 08:08 AM
I've seen film shown at 30fps (Oklahoma in 70mm). It doesn't look like film or television to me. It is a different look, but a pleasing one. Even going to 26fps (This is Cinerama) is an improvement over 24 (though I cannot tell the difference between 24 and 25, personally). I'm sure that there is a point where increasing the frame rate is either pointless or starts to look bad, but I don't see it at 26fps or 30fps. I'm not convinced that there is anything magical about 24fps, specifically, except that it has about ninety years' worth of history behind it (which should not be discounted). I have never seen Showscan (70mm at 60fps), but am told that it looks great.
As for 4K DLP--I've never actually worked anywhere that has it. Some places wanted it, but ended up going with 2K for reasons of cost or physical installation issues (the 4K machines are (or were) larger). I can think of a few of them in the Boston area, but those are mostly at the big multiplexes. For "film" festivals, 4K is just an annoyance, since it takes longer to ingest, while providing no benefit (in a 2k house). It would be great if 4K were more common in the real world, but, for now, it seems not to be. There may be a chicken-or-egg problem here, since no theatre owner will buy a 4K machine without a significant amount of 4K content to show on it. There is also some question as to whether 4K is marketable to the moviegoing public.
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Carsten Kurz
Film God
Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted 02-08-2019 08:20 AM
quote: Bruce Cloutier
I had figured that to be a processing issue.
Many people think that the soap opera effect is the result of bad frame interpolation only. However, as it stands, the impression is the same for both original higher frame rate capture and (good or bad) frame interpolation. The whole 24fps issue is quite complicated (and fascinating). You can enjoy high frame rate in panning shots, documentaries, sports, whatever. The moment you see a person acting - the magic is gone...weird...
Douglas Trumbull is one of the key proponents for higher and highest frame rate (+120fps). And he said:
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'I love high frame rates, because I like to make simulation rides and reality-based experiences that are looking to be as realistic as they possibly can, but 24 frames is what I call the “texture” of feature films. And I don’t think anybody’s really ready to see what you would categorize as a feature film shot at 60. And that was one of the tests I did when I was at Showscan; we shot a fully dramatic short film with sets, props, actors, the whole thing at 60 and it was very disturbing. Because it was like live news, or sports, or something.'
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'Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk' was the la(te)st attempt to use high frame rate in a feature film. Literally a few days before the release date, Sony pulled the plug and it went out in 24fps. So far, the three Hobbit movies have been the only HFR releases, and even they only had HFR in 3D, not in 2D. And when Peter Jackson noticed the amount of irritation the first Hobbit caused, he applied loads of processing to the following two to reduce the alienation.
Since Billy Lynn, it appears to me that studios, producers and film makers have eliminated the term High Frame Rate from their vocabulary. It's burnt.
Let's see what James Cameron does with Avatar 2. It was James Cameron who said that 2K HFR produces sharper images than 4k/24fps (because of reduced shutter times and less motion blur). He didn't cover the soap opera issue, though. I think directors' statements need to be taken with a grain of salt - other than us mere mortals, they see actors, props, etc. without the capture/shutter/color grading, when shooting the movie. They are used to that. What they see in high frame rate is closer to their on-set experience, so, they may not be as irritated as we when watching high frame rate in cinema and expect to see the magic.
When I see Gandalf in 24fps, I see Gandalf the Grey. When I see Gandalf in 48fps, I see a cheap sack robed pretzel seller on a medieval market startling kids.
Maybe film makers need different tools to solve that issue. Merely switching from low to high frame rates from shot to shot doesn't work. It needs to be more advanced I think, something like dynamic motion blur in combination with different shooting frame rates and shutter speeds, chosen carefully per scene. I can imagine James Cameron solving that puzzle.
- Carsten
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-08-2019 09:06 AM
quote: Marcel Birgelen
Well, you're talking about bean counters yourself... How often do you think that the decision to locate your office somewhere is really made based on all the merits, including the availability of the necessary infrastructure? In practice, this is often really just an afterthought... let the techs figure it out.
In any technology-oriented business they do think about that stuff. A big enough business will actually get local governments and utilities involved to solve any problems and/or improve the infrastructure situation. That all comes as part of sweetening the deal to get that business to locate there.
This hypothetical scenario you're trying to pitch, implying CGI businesses are deliberately locating their offices way the hell out in the boonies where decent Internet access is scant is very absurd. Aside from acceptably fast Internet access, what about highway access and travel time to and from airports? That's not going to be for shit if you're way out in the sticks. And it's really going to suck bad if the long drive is in a place like India. What about all the creature comforts that come with living in an urban or at least sub-urban area? You get very little of that "roughing it" out in remote areas.
Here in the United States people are leaving small towns and rural areas in droves. Poor Internet service and dodgy phone service is a lesser factor but one of many driving the migration of people to big cities and suburbs. It takes a solid tax base for a small town to maintain a public school system, police department, fire department, trash removal, water & sewage service and keeping the streets paved. Many small towns are struggling to afford those things. I know of several small towns near Lawton which have no local police departments anymore, relying on the country sheriff instead. If the town doesn't have enough job opportunities and social life the kids will leave town when they get out of school. Plenty of small rural towns here in Oklahoma are aging and threatening to die out because of this cycle. And I'm talking about the situation of small towns in the United States, a "developed first world" nation.
I don't know the much about the Internet infrastructure in India. I'm betting the back-bones must be pretty good in the big cities there. We wouldn't be getting countless numbers of telemarketing robo-calls from India otherwise.
quote: Scott Norwood
I've seen film shown at 30fps (Oklahoma in 70mm). It doesn't look like film or television to me. It is a different look, but a pleasing one. Even going to 26fps (This is Cinerama) is an improvement over 24 (though I cannot tell the difference between 24 and 25, personally). I'm sure that there is a point where increasing the frame rate is either pointless or starts to look bad, but I don't see it at 26fps or 30fps. I'm not convinced that there is anything magical about 24fps, specifically, except that it has about ninety years' worth of history behind it (which should not be discounted). I have never seen Showscan (70mm at 60fps), but am told that it looks great.
I've only seen Showscan a couple times. That was over 20 years ago. To me the imagery didn't look like a soap opera, but it didn't look like film either. The imagery basically looked real, kind of like looking through a window into another reality. For dramatic productions that could have the unintended effect of making something look like a live on stage show. But I think that can be avoided with dramatic use of camera angles, color/lighting and overall production design.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-08-2019 10:09 AM
quote: Bobby Henderson
This hypothetical scenario you're trying to pitch, implying CGI businesses are deliberately locating their offices way the hell out in the boonies where decent Internet access is scant is very absurd.
I'm not implying that anybody is locating it there deliberately, you're making things up as you go. I'm just saying: it happens.
It even happened to a local business that happened to do a lot of video production. They decided to locate their new, shiny office on the other side of a river, where nobody could deliver any kind of decent connectivity. The nearest fiber was miles away or across the river. Crossing the river or digging miles of fiber was a little bit beyond their expected budget.
In the end, the stuff got semi-solved using a wireless link across said river. Still, when the weather was exceptionally bad, their uplink would suffer.
quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't know the much about the Internet infrastructure in India. I'm betting the back-bones must be pretty good in the big cities there. We wouldn't be getting countless numbers of telemarketing robo-calls from India otherwise.
So, why are you making random assumptions then? I'm not pulling stuff just out of my *ss...
There is a big difference between transporting raw 4K video versus voice calls. You can fit 30 UNCOMPRESSED concurrent calls into a single 2 MBit connection. If you use compression, you can easily up that to 60 or 100 concurrent calls or even more if you don't give anything about quality.
If you want to do serious FX or post production work, even a 100 mbit symmetric connection is just about nothing fancy. Try getting that in Bangalore for any reasonable budget and even if you get it, maybe you get 100 MBit on the local tail, that's no guarantee you'll be getting 100 MBit all the way across the globe towards your head-office. And not everybody has ILM-sized budgets.
We've got a symmetric gigabit connection at our office, some VDSL2 backup connections and a cable connection at 500 MBit down, I'm not expecting to get gigabit speeds to all destinations. The Internet is a big shared medium in the end...
We've got a VPN to an office in Germany, that's behind a 100 MBit symetric fiber connection. I'm lucky if I'm pushing 6 MBytes per second over that VPN. Obviously, there is overhead in encryption, but transferring feature-sized DCPs is still pretty much a painfully slow process.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Aside from acceptably fast Internet access, what about highway access and travel time to and from airports? That's not going to be for shit if you're way out in the sticks.
I'd say, Skywalker Sound qualifies pretty much as "way out in the sticks."
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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.
Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-08-2019 03:16 PM
Here's the list of 4K releases that I have from 2018:
quote:
releasedate title
2018-10-10 22 July
2018-11-22 24 Kisses
2018-08-17 Alpha (2018)
2018-09-20 American in Paris, An: The Musical
2018-10-11 Aravindha Sametha Veera Raghava
2018-11-16 At Eternity's Gate
2018-05-04 Bad Samaritan
2018-11-08 Ballad of Buster Scruggs, The
2018-08-24 Beautifully Broken
2018-01-26 Bhaagamathie
2018-12-13 Bird Box
2018-11-02 Boy Erased
2018-12-21 Cold War (2018)
2018-01-12 Commuter, The
2018-07-13 Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot
2018-02-16 Early Man
2018-06-15 Eating Animals
2018-07-13 Eighth Grade
2018-11-09 Girl in the Spider's Web, The
2018-09-07 God Bless the Broken Road
2018-03-30 God's Not Dead 3: A Light in Darkness
2018-08-24 Happytime Murders, The
2018-07-27 Hot Summer Nights
2018-12-14 If Beale Street Could Talk
2018-10-26 Indivisible (2018)
2018-09-14 Lizzie
2018-12-06 Mercy, The (2018)
2018-10-18 More Than Funny
2018-07-12 Muse: Drones World Tour
2018-02-16 Nostalgia (2018)
2018-08-29 Operation Finale
2018-11-30 Possession of Hannah Grace, The
2018-10-02 Power of Zero, The
2018-01-12 Proud Mary
2018-03-30 Rangasthalam
2018-11-21 Roma (2018)
2018-06-15 Sammohanam
2018-02-16 Samson (2018)
2018-11-06 Sarkar (2018)
2018-11-02 Savyasachi
2018-11-30 Sicilian Ghost Story
2018-08-10 Slender Man (2018)
2018-05-25 Solo: A Star Wars Story
2018-10-26 Suspiria
2018-03-16 Tomb Raider (2018)
2018-03-23 Unsane
2018-12-25 Vice (2018)
2018-10-26 Viper Club
2018-12-21 Welcome to Marwen
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