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Topic: Harkins Theaters

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-21-2019 12:45 PM

quote: William Kucharski
Occasionally it's way too loud in my opinion, but that's the volume level the filmmakers wanted me to listen at, so I do.

The filmmakers want it to be seen in a theater, so if you want the intended experience, you shouldn't be watching it at home at all. (Either one is going to be a compromise, apparently!)

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-21-2019 12:55 PM

I think some of the "filmmakers" and sound mixers have a philosophy way out of touch with paying movie theater customers. They want things as "real" as possible. They want a sound element like a gun shot to be as painfully loud as it is in real life. The trouble is there must be practical limits to that. I think most audience members like a sound mix that is fun and dynamic. I really love it if a theater's sound system has sub-bass powerful enough to punch the air in my chest and do so without sounding muddy and sloppy. No one is going to like high frequency elements (such as the upper registers of a gun shot) played at unreasonably high decibel levels. When I go to a pistol range I bring along my goofy-looking blue ear muffs. I'm not going to be a "purist" and stupidly damage my hearing by keeping it real.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-21-2019 12:59 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
This is why I think it's very critical for a commercial theater not to go on the cheap with its sound system.

Agreed. But is anyone actually doing that now? To the extent that I have seen newly built or refurbished cinemas in the last few years, all have had top-quality sound equipment. If D-cinema has done anything good for the industry, it has pretty much succeeded at bringing good sound systems to pretty much every venue, at least from what I have seen.

If there are weak points with a particular system, they are more likely to be with the quality of the installation/maintenance or the room acoustics, not the equipment that is in place.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-21-2019 04:41 PM

I have rarely seen "top quality" sound equipment. Most of the 3-way speaker systems I've seen are near garbage in acoustical performance.

Most of the speaker manufacturers that have their well-designed speaker and then there are those that have been "value engineered" to look sort of like the good one but with notably inferior components.

Then there are those speakers designed to "fit." Exhibitors don't want to give up real estate behind the screen and put in the thin speakers that do not sound as good as the full sized ones. Do they really think that the physics changes because they wanted a shallower speaker that the horn has any chance of controlling the sound?

How about baffle walls...what percentage of theatres do you think put them in?

How about insulation above the ceiling? Very few.

What is the RT60 of the typical cinema?

Honestly, I'd take an Altec speaker of yore (A5 or A4) in a good acoustic room over most of the speakers coming out today. A JBL4675 beats most of the speakers coming out today.

There ARE good speakers out there today but they are not on the "thrift" side of the scale and if one is on a budget, go 2-way before considering an econo-3-way...seriously. It is FAR, FAR easier to make a good 2-way than a good 3-way (or 4-way).

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Geoff Jones
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 579
From: Broomfield, CO, USA
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 05-21-2019 08:34 PM

According to their Theater Openings page, Harkins is opening two more theaters in the Denver area in the next couple of years, one in Northglenn and one in Aurora (less than 8 miles from their current Northfield location).

They also have a new theater coming in metro Phoenix (Laveen).

All three will have 12 screens.

The Laveen theater will have a "Premium large format Cine1 Auditorium" which I assume must be one of the "XL" versions, while the Colorado theaters will each have a Cine 1 Auditorium. Boo.

Sadly, all of three Cine1/CineCapri screens in Colorado will probably show the same title at the same time.

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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 244
From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012

posted 05-22-2019 06:06 AM

quote:
The filmmakers want it to be seen in a theater, so if you want the intended experience, you shouldn't be watching it at home at all. (Either one is going to be a compromise, apparently!)

Sadly, yes - big screen, bad sound or smaller screen, good sound.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 05-22-2019 06:09 AM

I find those Harkins theater types to be rather confusing. I understand that Cine Capri is meant to replicate the feeling of the original Cine Capri theater. Then, you got Cine 1, which looks awfully close to the Cine Capri concept. Is Cine 1 a "lesser" version of Cine Capri or what exactly are the differences? And then, are there gradations in the Cine 1 concept? Like "Standard" Cine 1 and "PLF" Cine 1?

quote:
The filmmakers want it to be seen in a theater, so if you want the intended experience, you shouldn't be watching it at home at all. (Either one is going to be a compromise, apparently!)

A lot of filmmakers seem to be out of touch with how their product is going to be consumed in the end.

There is definitely some kind of "loudness war" in the movie industry, although it doesn't affect all mixes equally. Maybe it's primarily affected by the ego of the director or sound mixer... or a combination of them.

No two rooms in this world sound exactly the same, that's even true for mixing stages. There is so much involved in the way we hear sound, it's also, for a very large part a subjective matter.

Many of the "premium" concepts play on this subjective part. They sell "great sound" to the audience, while in the end, the only thing that's being achieved is that it's loud... Then again, tell the customer that it's great and that's why he paid a premium for it and many of them will actually believe it or they simply want to believe it.

What Steve said about quality equipment and higher volumes is true. If your equipment has sufficient headroom, low distortions and is correctly calibrated, you can play a lot of stuff a heck of a lot louder, before it's getting irritating or even painful.

Now, our screening room doesn't cut corners when it comes down to the quality of the sound equipment. Most stuff also has so much headroom, it would potentially blow your eardrums before we even got to the limitations. Distortion is very low and everything has been calibrated as far as it makes any engineering sense. So, this room comes pretty close to what the sound-mixer should've had in mind when he/she made the original mix.

We honestly try to play everything at 7.0, but there is a lot of stuff out there, that is mixed so hot, it seriously is bonkers to play it at such levels. Bonkers in a way that it could become a potential health hazard even, especially since many of those productions contain action scenes that never seem to end. Don't get me wrong, I like it "loud" or better: highly dynamic. An explosion should make an impact and a gunshot should sound sharp, but it shouldn't effectively hurt the people in the auditorium.

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Aron Toplitsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 113
From: Gardena, CA, USA
Registered: May 2012

posted 05-22-2019 09:49 AM

I appreciate everyone's input. It's so interesting how many factors play a role in quality sound, which is most important for me.

As for Harkins, I'm happy to report the John Wick Chapter 3 showing in Cine 1 at Cerritos was much better than I expected. The screen size was amazing and sound was good and powerful. I would definitely go back. Out of curiosity I went to see the film again at a Dolby Cinema showing at my local AMC. In terms of sound it was slightly better, I just wish they would do away with vibrating seats, as for picture there was no comparison. The picture quality of Dolby was stunningly better.

Since this thread has been discussing theater levels, what kind of standard does Dolby Cinema set? I know they use Atmos, but what are the faders being played at? Do they usually install quality equipment? I've enjoyed every Dolby Cinema showing at my two local AMC theaters. The sound is always a good solid level with clean powerful bass, but again, those vibrating seats are a little annoying and creates an artifical quality in my opinion. I wish that could be controlled individually.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-22-2019 01:11 PM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Is Cine 1 a "lesser" version of Cine Capri or what exactly are the differences? And then, are there gradations in the Cine 1 concept? Like "Standard" Cine 1 and "PLF" Cine 1?

The main difference with Cine 1 is recliners. It has them while the Cine Capri houses have traditional theater seats. The Cine Capri houses are bigger and apparently now have laser projection.

quote: Aron Toplitsky
Since this thread has been discussing theater levels, what kind of standard does Dolby Cinema set? I know they use Atmos, but what are the faders being played at? Do they usually install quality equipment?

I think loudness levels vary slightly from one location to the next. The few I've visited in Texas and Oklahoma have never seemed overly loud. Sub-bass is decent, but not "whoa" impressive. I don't know if that's 100% the fault of those specific theaters. I think both sound mixing teams and commercial theaters in general have toned down sub-bass levels compared to the bombastic days of the 1990's when digital sound was a new novelty.

For what it costs to visit a Dolby Cinema @ AMC theater, I sure hope they're installing top of the line equipment. I'm skeptical that's happening unfortunately. I think any theater that's charging upwards of $20 per ticket ought to be installing top of the line gear, have top of the line acoustic qualities in the room and keep things running top notch.

In Oklahoma City when I compare the Cine Capri screen in Bricktown to the Dolby Cinema screen at AMC's 24-plex at Quail Springs Mall the Cine Capri clearly has the better Atmos-capable system. The Cine Capri is a significantly larger auditorium and has 50 surround speakers visible (20 of them on the ceiling). It sounds like more of the speakers in the Cine Capri house are discretely amplified rendering points for 3D audio than the Dolby Cinema house. The one advantage the Dolby Cinema screen has is image quality, a pair of RGB laser projectors is usually going to project a better image than a single projector. I don't know if Harkins actually swapped out the single Xenon-based digital projector in OKC's Cine Capri for a new laser projector yet. I don't know what kind of laser projectors they're putting in the Cine Capri houses either. Maybe it's a conversion that's in progress. I did notice the two Cine Capri theaters in the Phoenix area have reserved seating while the 3 outside AZ do not.

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Jarod Reddig
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 513
From: Hays, Ks
Registered: Jun 2011

posted 05-22-2019 05:40 PM

I really like the Harkins Northfield Cine Capri theater in Denver Co. I visit there quite a bit. Love the big curtain and big Scope screen. Atmos sound is large and dynamic sounding too. They also butter your popcorn for you as they fill it like everyone used to.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-22-2019 06:06 PM

I think the popcorn/butter policy is a staff-dependent thing. At the Patriot Cinemas theater here in Lawton the staff will fill a popcorn bucket halfway and let you butter it just the way you like at the popcorn station and then fill it up the rest of the way (and then you butter the top layer of popcorn).

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 05-22-2019 07:23 PM

quote: Aron Toplitsky
Since this thread has been discussing theater levels, what kind of standard does Dolby Cinema set? I know they use Atmos, but what are the faders being played at? Do they usually install quality equipment? I've enjoyed every Dolby Cinema showing at my two local AMC theaters. The sound is always a good solid level with clean powerful bass, but again, those vibrating seats are a little annoying and creates an artifical quality in my opinion. I wish that could be controlled individually.

I can't comment on the AMC Dolby Cinema setup, as those are essentially discount-versions of what Dolby Cinema should have been.

What I can tell you, is what went into the first prototype purposely built Dolby Cinema theater in Eindhoven, The Netherlands and that wasn't cheap by any means.

Dolby hadn't acquired SLS yet, so their amplifiers and speakers were based on Christie Vive Audio. My personal experience with Christie Vive is limited, but what they put in there was only the expensive stuff, including line-array based surrounds. They also didn't skimp on the amount of surrounds. They did build a proper baffle wall and put in 5 channels of front-stage speakers. There are not only sub woofers in the front of the room, but also distributed around the rest of the room. None of those speakers is visible, they're all hidden from sight. The amplifiers are three racks loaded with Christie CDA5 amps.

The only thing that sucks is: Common width screen with no movable masking...

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-22-2019 08:30 PM

I don't know if the Dolby/AMC deal is Dolby Cinema Lite...I haven't heard that at all though I have no direct information or experience with them.

As for Dolby Cinema and Vive...I don't know if there was any real partnership there for any length of time. I know that for exactly one Atmos demonstration at CinemaCon they used the VIVE speakers and it turned me off from Atmos because I couldn't get out of the room fast enough. You could have played it on "3" and it would been offensive.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 05-23-2019 12:20 AM

I can't comment on the technology part for the Dolby Cinema @ AMC setup, but it is certainly a "Lite" setup if you consider the entirety of the setup.

The original Dolby Cinema concept was: Purpose-built theaters only. That also included a special room-geometry, a massive amount of sound-proofing (also, to keep the outside world out), special air-conditioning ducting (to keep the noise down), their Stealth-Fighter like paneling and aisle lightning designed not to reflect on the screen. The same was true for other, often very distracting features like emergency exit lightning, etc. Obviously, this kind of requirements cancels out most refurbishments, as it will be near impossible to find existing rooms that can be easily converted to such requirements.

Regarding Christie Vive itself: I have insufficient experience with the stuff to have an opinion on it. What I do know that they eventually did make it work for this one setup in Eindhoven. Even though they might have screwed it up by now, it still at least was the best-sounding Dolby Cinema setup I've encountered, but only after my second visit. To be fair, my first visit was during trail runs, where even the automation didn't work properly yet.

Dolby probably spent close to unlimited efforts to get the thing right, after all, this was their showpiece, which they used to sell the concept to other potential partners.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-23-2019 12:47 AM

I'm glad to hear that you found that the VIVE could be listened to. What I heard was so off-putting (and I mean PAINFUL), I really don't want to hear them again, if I can avoid it. There are plenty of good speakers out there that do a better job, in my opinion (e.g the QSC SC-424)

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