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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Anti-Piracy
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-05-2002 06:51 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The methods Brad mentions are pretty good. I like the changing number on the door/wall/wherever the best. In the "Empire" example you could only narrow it down to 50% of the prints. Not effective enough.

Of course you can get good copies pointing your camera at the screen, but that's not the biggest threat, IMO. Hackers are generally pretty damn smart, and in reality they WILL break the encryption to DLP and be able to convert the files to standard Quicktimes/AVI's or whatever. They could burn really nice looking DVD's. There is no encryption that cannot be broken. Once this happens then everyone will have to upgrade their DLP's to a new encryption method. And then it will happen again and again. These guys don't have great morals, but they are "whip smart". Who's to say that the team who designed the encryption won't leak out the info? Just 'cause they work for TI or whoever doesn't mean they are trustworthy. Like the RIAA and MPAA want us to believe... "No one is trustworthy".


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-06-2002 01:28 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad is correct, a pirated video of a film projected in a theatre will usually have annoying flicker.

Kodak already has developed invisible digital "watermarking" technology:
Kodak Digital Cinema Watermarking
Watermarking Features
About Kodak Digital Watermarking
Technical Paper about Kodak Digital Watermarking

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-06-2002 03:00 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

Another idea is to incorporate an infared signal inside the DLP that projects through the DLP's lens along with the picture. The signal would write the DLP serial number across the picture along with a date and time. The beauty of this is that while no human could ever see it (unlike those CAP code dots), the second a pirate looked through his viewfinder to start videotaping, he would see it and there would be no way to trick the camera not to see it. Just point a remote control at a videocamera and you'll see what I mean. Surely there is some way to make that basic idea work, although I do not know how well it would reflect off of a screen.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-06-2002 03:45 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Use of infrared and other similar concepts are already being discussed.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-06-2002 03:56 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If they go the infrared route, which makes the most sense in the grand scheme of things, I hope they make it so that there is no way that the user or even a technician can get to it. There are several DVD players on the market with a secret menu that allows you to turn off Macrovision encoding. Let's hope there are no secret menus in digital cinema.

I'd make the infrared numbers HUGE. So huge that there is no way they could be cropped out. "Across the entire screen" huge. That would make the pirates say "Argh mateys" and just not tape the movie. Would you rather catch the pirates who do this, or would you rather prevent it altogether? Sometimes I get the feeling that the industry would rather punish than prevent.

Also, about lost revenue. If it wasn't for piracy, do the studios think that people would have PAID to see whatever movies they stole? I think many people pirate just because they can.


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-06-2002 05:41 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would think that the most flexible anti-piracy approach for DLP shows would be to implement the encryption technology in hardware (for example, as a plug-in card, much like Dolby cards) that can easily be swapped out with a more sophisticated system at a future date. The worst possible approach would be to standardize on an ineffective system (a la CSS for DVDs) and then be stuck with it for many years into the future. The decryption 'key' could be transmitted over telephone lines (or something similar) and could be time- or location-locked--i.e. it would only be useful for decrypting the "movie" at a particular time of day (or range of times) and in a particular location (perhaps the playback device could have a GPS receiver built in). This way, theft of the "key" (via phone taps, etc.) would be pointless, since the usefulness of a given key would expire within a few hours or if the player were moved far from its theatre location.

Initial encryption (and--ugh!--compression) could be done in the mastering stage by the post house which would put together the entire program. The decryption itself should be done in the projector head, so that all of the data on the wire would be encrypted. As new and better encryption schemes are devised, theatre owners could simply swap cards in their projector heads.

[I won't even discuss the DVD issue here, which is totally different and is set up to deny DVD owners their legally protected "fair use" rights to make copies of the material for personal use under specific circumstances. I strongly oppose piracy, but I won't stand for attempts to infringe upon legally protected rights (at least in the US), either.]

[BTW, for those who are interested in issues of intellectual property rights and the delicate balance between private and common ownership, I can recommend "The Future of Ideas" by Lawrence Lessig. He makes many important points that I agree with, but cannot articulate as well as he does in the book.]


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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-06-2002 10:49 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can add an infrared filter to a camera fairly easily.
Video cameras with variable electronic shutters eliminate most of the flicker from taped film.
Macrovision is laughably easy to defeat. It only frustrates the rank amateurs. With real "factory" movie video prices today, it is simply uneconomical to make and sell fake copies once a movie releases to video. The big profit in piracy is from exploiting the release schedule; with a new hit movie here that won't be released in Japan for a month or two one can get a damn good price for a pirate copy in Tokyo - and the Yakuza are well aware of it.
I really think that the quality of a video made by taping a projected image is so poor that honest distribution isn't markedly affected. If you've ever seen a "sidewalk tape" you will probably agree that anyone who could afford to see the real (reel?) movie would do so.
Security can be incredibly tight for films before release. Guards accompany every negative and show print, and the labs are locked up like Fort Knox. As soon as the film is released though, all bets are off.
An organization that can make $$$ from selling tapes in affluent late release markets will find a way to get a print.
It only takes one quiet break-in or finding a bent staffer plus a telecine setup to make a million bucks? Done.
A crappy tape with mono sound is not going to be worth as much as the currently available pirate DVD versions with full digital sound. You don't see this kind of product in North America very often, but if you look in the back alleys of Akihabara you can probably find one of Spiderman right now. Why? Since I can see the film in a theatre for $10.00 today, I'm not too likely to spend $200.00 for a DVD that I'll be able to get for $30.00 in a few months legally - fans in Japan who have to wait a few weeks for the local release and have the money...?

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-07-2002 01:16 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Simultaneous worldwide releases! I know that would be a bitch. But if the studios REALLY want to help stamp out piracy that might be one place to start. Of course if they would just stop releasing movies altogether there would be no more piracy... problem solved! Surprised the studios haven't thought of that one.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-07-2002 01:24 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, with most of the crap Hollywood is releasing, maybe the majority of the studios should stop releasing films.



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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-07-2002 01:35 AM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Day and date worldwide? Where the heck would we get the rejuvenated prints for Europe and Australia?

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David Rowley
Film Handler

Posts: 14
From: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 05-07-2002 01:46 AM      Profile for David Rowley   Email David Rowley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Long time lurker, first time poster...

I seriously wonder at just how much piracy affects the film industry. If someone actually wants to see a movie, are they going to settle for some jerky video camera capture? Probably not. Look at this last weekend. Spider-man set box office records left, right, and centre, even though it could be downloaded off of the 'net for free, not to mention not having to wait in lineups. I don't think piracy hurt that movie...

Granted, not all copies are poor quality. The copy of the LOTR floating around is just amazing; obviously a screener DVD rip. Great stereo sound, and amazing picture quality for an SVCD. Yes, I have a copy of it (somewhere), but that didn't stop me from seeing it in the theater nine (9) times. Yes, I am a freak.


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-07-2002 01:59 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David:

Welcome to Film-Tech, "The Home of the Professionals".


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David Rowley
Film Handler

Posts: 14
From: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 05-07-2002 12:14 PM      Profile for David Rowley   Email David Rowley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Welcome to Film-Tech, "The Home of the Professionals".

I am not a professional in the film industry (should be pretty obvious), but I've seen enough movies (or at least a few movies enough times) to hopefully be able to contribute in some way.

I'm a newbie here, so if I get out of line, feel free to let me know!

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-07-2002 01:41 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul scribbled:
Welcome to Film-Tech, "The Home of the Professionals".

Paul, professional what? Weenie shakers? I've got to do an animated gif you you shaking that weenie. Every time I see it, I get the urge to make one, and then put you and Joe R. in an animated light-weenie battle.

I prefer to think of film-tech as a representative cross-section of village idiots, gearheads, and geeks, myself included.

David scratched the following into the electron stream:
"I'm a newbie here, so if I get out of line, feel free to let me know!"

David, I'll save you from having to wait around:

"Perhaps I am an exception to the rule when it comes to piracy. I only pirate that which I enjoy (or think I will enjoy)"

You're out of line. If you want to pirate stuff for your own personal use, and you don't see anything wrong with it, then do it. If you get caught with your hands in the cookie jar, you can deal with that as well. Don't expect anyone to approve of it, no matter how noble your actions.

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David Rowley
Film Handler

Posts: 14
From: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 05-07-2002 05:30 PM      Profile for David Rowley   Email David Rowley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You're out of line. If you want to pirate stuff for your own personal use, and you don't see anything wrong with it, then do it. If you get caught with your hands in the cookie jar, you can deal with that as well. Don't expect anyone to approve of it, no matter how noble your actions.

Fair enough. I don't expect anyone to agree with my statements, nor approve. I was just trying to illustrate my point that I didn't believe that Hollywood is suffering as much as they would like us to think.

Movies are better in the theater (most of the time), and I think most people would rather pay to have a nice theater experience than to watch a poor quality camcorder version for free...myself included.

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