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Author Topic: The ADA & Segways? Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-16-2003 03:50 PM                     I found THIS PDF document that contains California's laws about the Segway. It appears that, in California at least, it ISN'T given the same rights as a wheelchair. Furthermore, municipalities seem to have the right to ban its use if they think it's a public nuissance. Nothing in the law speaks about its use indoors. Only outdoors. With this in mind, I'd be inclined to change my position and say that the guy should lock it up on the bicycle rack outside. (Or whatever place there is to lock it up outside.) I still think a Segway could see good use as an assistive mobility device but, in this case, I think the burden is on the user to show that he really IS using it that way, not just as an excuse to play with his new toy.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-16-2003 07:32 PM                        I don't think the photos of Bush trying to ride the thing are Photoshopped nor do I think the woman is pushing him. If you look at the pictures, you can see that the camera panned slightly over to the left, so the woman would be out of the frame. And the woman definitely wasn't pushing him, it looked more as if she was offering slight support with her hand as Bush climbed on.  |  IP: Logged Mathew Molloy Master Film Handler Posts: 357 From: The Santa Cruz Mountains Registered: Nov 2000 posted 06-16-2003 09:41 PM                     Based on my limited knowledge of Segways, I figured they were toys- and dangerous at that. But if they did not pose a danger and were to be classified as ADA complient I would have no problem allowing them into the theatre. And just for your information as funny as most of us found Mike's Segway ADA signs, they did not go over well with our Human Resources department. Wish I had thought they could be offensive to some before I attached them to company email. My bad.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-16-2003 11:24 PM                     The standard answer to the Segway safety question: Say that you bumped into somebody while riding one. It would be similar to bumping into somebody while you were running. Furthermore, they say, since the thing operates by the computer inside sensing its position the computer would "know" that a sudden change in its motion/direction happening and likely would cause it to stop. Since you operate it by leaning, if you ran into a wall for example, it would tip backward. The computer would interpret that as a signal to stop moving. As interesting as that sounds, running into a person at speeds of up to 12 miles per hour could injur somebody or damage property. Jeez, if you propelled one person at another at that speed it would HURT! Top that off with another 100 pounds of machinery and, yes Virginia, somebody's going to feel pain! This doesn't include running into objects, running over somebody's foot or driving it over the edge of a drop off. Cripes! I get hurt just stepping off the curb, sometimes! So, what does the guy in question appear to be? Is he some young-ish guy who looks like he's just showing off a new toy? Or, does he even remotely look like he is using it for a reason? Y'know, many if not most people I have seen using wheelchairs or scooters seem to be on the lookout for the pitfalls of using their device. They look out for obstacles... They often slow down when they get near people... etc, etc. Not all whellchair people do this but I'm sure you've seen the kind of people I'm talking about. You can just tell. I'd say you can use his demeanor as a clue about his "medical necessity". Here's a ling I found to a semi-official site about Segway news and info. There's lots of info and Q&A. www.segwaychat.com And, if you want the "company line"... www.segway.com  |  IP: Logged David Rigby Expert Film Handler Posts: 134 From: Chorlton, Manchester, UK Registered: May 2002 posted 06-17-2003 09:58 AM                     Segways aren't really available in the UK to any extent at present. What a shame. At only £4000 I'd buy one right off!! My main beef with these things is that far from being an 'assisted mobility device' they're being marketed as a lazy-ass way to get around town. Rather than helping folks get more mobile, they're more likely to make people LESS mobile since a short walk around town is all the exercise many people get. I'd say deny access unless the user has a definite verifiable need - otherwise it's just an expensive toy (I'm guessing folks can't ride horses into the lobby...). David  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-17-2003 08:26 PM                        Mathew, I hope you are well liked and respected in your company, and that it's not too big. Going around sending company wide e-mails like that would probably be a good way to get them to want to get rid of you. I have no idea what your situation is since I don't work there, but I'd just like to say "be careful!"  |  IP: Logged Mathew Molloy Master Film Handler Posts: 357 From: The Santa Cruz Mountains Registered: Nov 2000 posted 06-17-2003 10:29 PM                     Thanks Joe - I like to think I'm pretty well liked and respected in the company. I admitted a lack of judgement on my part and things are cool. It really never occured to me that the Segway spoof could be found offensive. The point was made to me that ADA signs are a necessity for a protected portion of the public. To make light of such as a representative of the company is unwise. (-My words.) Personally, I felt Mike's drawings were anything but offensive and I think I'm a compassionate guy. I get angry at people who falsly use handicap parking permits and the whole Segway issue stirred up similar emotions. Again, I thought it was akin to a toy, and a dangerous one at that. Not something someone with special needs would use. By the way, as I mentioned in my first post, this did not happen at my theatre but at another theatre. I was hoping to make sense of the whole issue but put my foot in my mouth instead.  |  IP: Logged Dave Williams Wet nipple scene Posts: 1836 From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Registered: Jan 2000 posted 06-18-2003 03:18 PM                        Before I get into my defensive rant about wheelchairs and the people that use them... ALLOW ME FIRST to defend our extremely smart president bush. Since the people stating that you only need half a brain to operate one, probably haven't operated one, makes me wonder if they are speaking for the half a brain crowd? Besides, you don't know the circumstances for the fall. It is a humorous picture, even I laugh at it, but come on!!! Ok, now on to the realities of wheelchair use. First of all, This damned device is NEVER going to be an endorsed Assistive Device under the ADA guidelines. It moves too fast. The standard acceptable maximum speed for motorized AD's is about 4 mph, with a maximum braking distance of about ONE foot from maximum speed. This device will not EVER fit the bill. It has been said in this forum that people that use wheelchairs when they can still walk around makes them use the wheelchair more and more then they really lose the use of the legs. Other things were said that were pretty offensive, but I am quite sure it is unintentional. People view those in wheelchairs as not whole people, or just lazy people. This is very old thinking. The American Medical Association has recently decided that people who live with temporary to permanent chronic non-cancer pain should not have to suffer needlessly. The old thinking that people will become dependant on pain medications and wheelchairs is going out the window. First, opiod pain medications attack pain centers in those that suffer from chronic pain, and physiological addiction is unlikely, as is damage to any body parts from long term use. In fact, long term use of Opiods is safer than long term use of Ibuprofen, Tylenol, aspirin, or naprasyn, in patients with long term chronic pain. Second, the use of assistive devices for those that are not prevented from walking yet suffer in extreme pain from prolonged exposure to walking in excess of 1000 feet is recommended. It is not necessary to force someone to stay at home because of chronic pain. The use of wheelchairs as assistive devices in those that cannot walk more than a few hundred feet at a time or per day is a great benefit. The patient still undergoes a solid excersise regimen orchestrated by the patients physicians and followed up with physical therapists. You don't see anyone throwing a fuss about people who sit on thier ass all day at work in front of a computer do you? I myself have found myself bound to a wheelchair if I want to go somewhere. I can only walk about 300 feet at a time, and about 1500 feet per day, TOTAL. I have a nerve disorder that has decimated my ability to walk great distances. It is totally possible to go without it. I can walk to the car, drive to the theater, walk in and sit down to a film. However, by then, the pain levels are so high that I cannot enjoy the film, the ambiance, the experience, or my wonderful fiance who has stuck by me through all of this. Would anyone deny me my ability to enjoy my life, just becuase I can still walk a bit? Believe me, people in wheelchairs are not happy about it. The world is not at our beck and call. I still maintain a very healthy excercise complement that keeps me walking about 1500 feet per day, and even that is extremely painful. Before the wheelchair, which I received just a week ago, I was stuck at home for the last eight months, only able to go to physical therapy and the hospital for various treatments and appointments. Now with the chair, and in just ONE week, I have gone to two movies, the zoo, two different parks, and THREE walks around the block with the love of my life. The people on these damned segways are just lazy asses. Use em while you can people, these legs are not to be taken for granted. People in wheelchairs face a very tough road, and constant non-acceptance. People see them as a nuisance, not as humans. PS... I found the new ADA segway signs a hoot! Plan to post em on the front door. Have any good ones with wheelchairs??? Dave  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-18-2003 04:12 PM                     The Segway can be programmed to only travel at a maximum speed. Yes, the top speed is 12 mph. but in practice they aren't driven that fast. If one wanted to limit the top speed it's as simple as inserting a different electronic key into the thing. Yes, some people are at risk of becoming dependant on their assistive devices. My Grandfather was one. He had diabetes. He slowly lost the use of his legs because of the disease. When he went to live in the nursing home, one of the first questions that got asked was, "Should we buy him a wheelchair?" The doctor said that would be a bad idea because he would lose the use of his legs even faster. He wanted my Grandfather to use his legs as much as possible. Later on, his legs got so weak he couln't walk for more than a few feet at a time, even with a walker. Again we asked, "Shoule be buy him a wheelchair?" This time the answer was, "Yes, but not a motorized one". The doctor wanted him to use his arms for cardiovascular excercise. He still wanted to encourage Grandfather to stand and walk the few feet he was able to prevent him from becoming totally wheelchair bound. Otherwise he would need constant 'round the clock care, lest he become unable to use the bathroom my himself. Yes, it's bad to have a disability that makes walking painful. I'm sorry to hear that you are/were in pain. However, thinking theoretically, wouldn't it be a good idea to have some kind of device that would act as a "range extender" so that you could live a life as normally as possible? I think there are a lot of people who are lazy or just want to play with their toys in public. These kind of people are doing a disservice to other people, like you, who really NEED some kind of electro-mechanical assistance. If not for them, the Segway could be reengineered or fine tuned to make it a usable device. Now, people are just looking at them as a nuissance. In some parts of Pennsylvania, the Amish drive around in horse drawn buggies. Most people look at them as a nuissance because some Amish don't think the traffic laws apply to them. (They DO apply!) On the flip side many motorists don't think they should have to be on the lookout for buggies. They will often "blow by" an Amish buggy, spooking the horses and causing all sorts of accidents. (This is JUST as illegeal!) Who is right? In some ways they both are. Yes, Amish should stop for stop signs but autos should slow down when approaching. We often end up with situations where each side resents the other for some real or imagined transgressions. If motorists simply slowed down then Amish folks would be more inclined to follow the traffic rules. If Amish folks followed the traffic rules motorists would be more inclined to give way. It only takes one A-Hole to screw it up for everybody. This, I believe, is the situation wheelchair people are in now. It only takes one asshole trying to push by a guy in a chair to piss off the "chair people". It only takes one idiot in a chair to piss off the "walking people". We are on the verge of having a good and useful device being labeled a nuissance becasue some J-Bag (hypothetically) comes whizzing into the lobby of a building and almost mertalizing some kid! Oh, just a side story: I was working in the theater one day and some woman came in using a chair. Not even thinking twice, I grabbed the door and opened it for her. Her response was, "Oh, I can get it! You're only doing it because your boss makes you!" Do you know how peeved I was?! If I wasn't at work wearing a uniform I would have slammed the door in her face and said, "Open your OWN damn door!" Never do I mean to imply that somebody doesn't have a right to his/her grievances but people on BOTH sides of the fence need to lighten up!  |  IP: Logged Gerard S. Cohen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 975 From: Forest Hills, NY, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 06-22-2003 08:51 AM                     Mike's Bike Tours in Paris ran a five-day Segway tour, as can be seen in the June 19th Slate http://slate.msn.com/id/2082835/entry/0/ The site includes a multi-media presentation with maps and a 54-slide show. Although the Jardin des Tuileries doesn't permit bicycles, it does allow Segways. The riders seem to have had no trouble riding the sidewalks and crosswalks, despite the cobbles and paving stones, as the tires are of large diameter. Pedestrians appear accepting, with no gawkers visible, though there are a few people interested when the riders stop at landmarks to converse and plan the next route. I've explored Paris on bicycles and on foot several times, but now that I'm older, the Segway begins to look tempting.  |  IP: Logged Martin Brooks Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 900 From: Forest Hills, NY, USA Registered: May 2002 posted 07-06-2003 06:23 PM                        Segways sell in the US (at Amazon) for $4950. I don't think you're going to have to worry about seeing too many of them very soon. Since one can't sit in a Segway like they can in a wheelchair, I would suggest a policy where either they have to be locked up outside or somehow checked inside. Perhaps the theatre could even purchase one wheelchair to assist such customers and customers who don't use a wheelchair to come to the theatre, but have trouble walking, especially if it's a multiplex with very long hallways. If the ADA (or some other org) does get rules passed that you have to "accept" use of the Segway in the theatre, than I would suggest that you have a rule limiting the speed to less than 5 mph or the same as an electric wheelchair. Regarding the use of Segways (outside of movie theatres) by non-disabled people, I think this is fine. The purpose isn't so much to limit walking, but to discourage car use for short trips. And yes, let's gang up on the Amish. They're the ones that are causing all the trouble in the world.  |  IP: Logged Nicholas Roznovsky Expert Film Handler Posts: 156 From: College Station, TX, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 07-06-2003 08:22 PM                        I took the family to Disney World earlier this week and found several parking attendants in the EPCOT parking lots using Segways. After speaking with several of the attendants, the consensus seemed to be that they were great for longer distance trips (across the vast parking lot, back to the HQ), but not-so-great for just puttering around. One attendant even went so far as to call them "annoying" and "tedious" when he was just trying to go 10 feet or so. When I asked them if they would take their Segways inside a crowded building like a mall or a theater, they looked at me like I was deranged. Not an endorsement or a condemnation, just marginally pertinent info.  |  IP: Logged

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