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Topic: Regal's Unit Loses Appeal on Seating

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-04-2004 11:48 PM

It's pretty obvious that the chains were playing a game of ignoring specific ADA requirements for accessible seating being dispersed in the auditorium since the Shubert decision in 1996. They were probably hoping that they could continue to ignore it through appeals in the hope that they'd end up with a decision more "industry-friendly" up the line & after a time. They gambled, they ignored the law, they lost.

"Ain't no need of cryin' now."
-- The Five Du-Tones, "Divorce Court"

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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-05-2004 01:05 AM

Regarding "rear loader" stadium theaters, I have been to a Cinemark that had two doorways leading into such an auditorium: The right doorway opened into a flight of stairs leading to the top-back of the auditorium. The left door opened to a ramped tunnel that took you around to the middle of the auditorium, where there was handicapped seating dead-center.

Now, if some people complain that it's too close or too far, given that it's right in the middle, what do you do? There's no other option than these middle seats.

=TMP=

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-05-2004 09:04 AM

I guess my view is more simply if I choose to build a theatre and invest my money in it I should then be able to choose the demographics that target and wish to attract.

If I feel that providing prime seating locations for handicapped then that should be my choice If my choice is that then return on the lost seating that is most of the time unused is too high then that is also my right.

Attending a movie is not a necessities of life as such I question the requirements that force business's to provide services that are not profitable

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-05-2004 10:44 AM

"Attending a movie is not a necessities of life as such I question the requirements that force business's to provide services that are not profitable"

I whole heartedly agree with that. I've also heard about booths having to be equipped to allow the handicapped to be able to work there. Totally rediclous to have to put your platter systems on elevators so some handicapped person can thread up a film from his wheel chair, utterly stupid. I wonder when NASA will have to start accomodating wheel chair people to do jobs like fuel a rocket......

Were I handicapped and stuck in a wheel chair I would certainly want to be useful in life. But I would certainly be seeking a job in that I am not a nuisance nor would I want to interfer with other peoples normal routines.

Mark

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-06-2004 01:01 AM

I really have to wonder how this ruling is going to affect the Carmike 8 theater in my town. A couple weeks ago the company announced the theater in Lawton would soon be converted to feature stadium seating. There's also an outside chance a couple more screens may be added to make up for lost seats in the conversion process.

If this decision is final it would seem that Carmike would have to put the plans on hold and make some adjustments. I'm not sure what would work to ADA satisfaction. A hybrid stadium and slope approach would seem logical, but in a wide bodied short throw auditorium you would still wind up in the same situation as a lot of existing stadium theaters: seats in the flat area too close to the screen.

Most existing stadium seated theaters have a structural design where it would be impossible to alter things so a person in a wheelchair could sit in the "sweet spot" of the theater. You would have to completely gut the theater and rebuild. Which circuits have the money to do that on a widespread basis?

If that is what ADA plans to demand, then you can count on a lot of theaters simply closing. Then the folks filing all the lawsuits can have a happy time only being able to rent/buy movies from a video store on DVD. I have a bad feeling that's where this industry may be heading in the long term for a variety of different reasons. But this ADA ruling may speed up the process in a lot of markets.

Oh, I almost forgot this one point, the idea that all parts of the theater should be equally accessible is just stupid. Have the militants who want that even tried to visualize it in their heads? I have. You know what I see? An auditorium with a flat floor and no seats. There. Equal f**king access. Everyone will damned sure be heading to the video rental counter if that happens.

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-07-2004 11:13 PM

WARNING!!! This may be the longest post of my career! Just warming up for my career as a commentator and columnist.. more on that in weeks to come.. for now.. ENJOY!!!

quote: Steve Guttag
Answer me this. If this is a stadium seating theatre that is a "rear loader." That is...all enter from the rear and the theatre was built by digging into the ground.

I have actually never seen one of these before, so without actually having been in one, it is difficult to even comprehend without a true frame of reference. However, I am familiar with a rear loader live stage however it carries only 8 rows so the back row tends to be quite fine.

However in general back rows are not what I pay for, in or out of my chair. I pay for a great experience, and I do understand that in order to avoid the back row I show up early to stake my claim.

quote: Pravin Ratnam
You overstate things. No one said that the back rows are the best seats, but they are not the worst seats either. Many non handicapped people sit in the back rows by choice. I personally prefer two thirds of the way back , but i would not be bent out of shape if I had to sit in the back row. Beats sitting too close to the screen unless you are 5 years old.

What exactly do you mean I overstate things? The back rows do in fact quite suck, and perhaps that is from my perspective, and I could do an entire commentary on that, but that is not why I am here today. Today is about the wheelchair problem, not whether or not the back seats suck. I suppose that people in wheelchairs should just get used to being told where they can go and where they are not allowed... more on that in a minute, I am just getting warmed up...

quote: Pravin Ratnam
But I would not make a blanket statement on backrows. Like I said before, there are so many things unregulated ina theater that ruin ANYONE's viewing experience like dim projector bulbs, non functioning speakers, wrong aspect ratio screens. You could use a small portion of that money that would be used in some cases to give you a better seat to improve those facets and everyone will benefit. If we can get everything else near perfect, then bitch about the back rows.

I am not dismissing the need for theaters to provide excellent presentation, and I bitch about that all the damned time! I never bitch about where my chair or myself can and cannot go, you took me and take me wrong. There is the blanket statement, assuming that I am along with people who bitch about things that others dont want them to bitch about. Hell I got a shit ass hot dog the other day and didn't bitch about it, the presentation was awesome so I gave them a pass on the dog!

If I don't like that I cannot find a proper seat or place to put my apparently in the way for the theater ass wheelchair, then I will VERY FREAKING POLITELY inform the manager as such and ask for either a ticket for the next showing or a voucher for a future engagement, and never a refund unless the theater itself warrants it.

For me, rear seats suck, and that is blanket for me, and I have NEVER liked them, never will, and that is my own personal feeling, perhaps I am too retarded to enjoy the back seat.

quote: Pravin Ratnam
I think public policy should be based on reasonable accomodation,not making sure handicapped people have to get exactly the same amount of prime access as non handicapped people regardless of the cost.

The problem here is what exactly is reasonable accommodations? How about bieng able to get in the door? How about bieng able to get around tight corners? How about bieng able to get to a seat, see the screen, hear the sound? Sounds reasonable. What, you think I am asking that you spend millions on my lame ass? Don't lump me in with whiny protestors, I am just a movie going nutbag that actually ENJOYS going to movies. I would just like to be able to ENJOY myself while there. I am after all paying a crapload for your nasty ass popcorn and watered down soft drinks.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen was the last to post
Attending a movie is not a necessities of life as such I question the requirements that force business's to provide services that are not profitable

I wholeheartedly disagree. Movies are part of a greater scheme of things known as the arts. To say that movies, music, concerts, museums, galleries, whatever, are not a necessity of life, what kind of life would this be? Why would anyone want to live a life where all it is, is go to work, pay your bills, and never leave your sheltered little life.

As for forcing business to accomodate every little thing, wheelchair accomodations are not that expensive for new construction, if it is properly planned and built as such, it should not impact the cost in any great way. If you are talking about lost seating that is rarely used, then advertise that you are in fact very hadicapped friendly and have the available good seating. Or better yet, understand that you can actually plan to put it in, in addition to the seating already planned, not take away from it. Good architechts may even know how to make that one work too, without adding to the cost of building or the cost of real estate. It can be done, thats all I would ask. I would never instist or even allow older buildings be changed to accomodate. Anything that would take from the bottom line to the point of bankruptcy or even loss of jobs, that would not be a good idea.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I've also heard about booths having to be equipped to allow the handicapped to be able to work there.

That's really going too far. There are jobs that the handicapped cannot do, and thier advocates should not push things so far as to truly hurt the issue at hand, and that is inexpensive and reasonable accomodation.

There is a larger issue here. I do not have to use my chair all the time, and quite often will refuse to use it if I feel I can survive without it. That does not mean I do not need it, and as time goes on, I can count on needing it as a necessity within a few years.

I abhorr that future, but I fear even worse an atmosphere where I the person in that chair am looked upon as a menace that should be avoided at all costs.

Years ago, in the fifties, my grandparents when traveling the country were not able to go into many places, such as hotels, restaraunts, and yes, even movie theaters. These places were whites only. Problem was, they were Italian, not black. But the racist pig southern redneck monkey jerks of the time (I am sure that the ones of this time are much nicer) didn't see the difference.

The attitudes are much the same. It will cost money to accomodate people like me. It will take away from other business. They get in the way of the normal people. Etc etc.

Blacks of the time, and even lets go back to the thirties and Nazi Germany, and bring in the jews. All they wanted was to be along for the ride. Instead, they were treated with misunderstanding, fear, and eventual hatred.

Handicapped people have always been looked upon as defective humans. I myself am guily of this. Perhaps this is my pennance. Either way, all I know is that I just want to be able to experience what others experience. I am not asking for a trip to the moon, only that I be allowed to view it like everyone else. Not too much to ask.

If a movie theater can be rethought and redesigned to include access by those that are unfortunately stuck in the chair, then great lets do it. By including those that are stuck along for the ride, we do more for humanity then getting pissed at those of us who just bitch and sue the piss out of business.

I have my favorite places to go, and I know there are places I cannot go or get to. I cannot go to the moon, and I cannot hike a mountain anymore. So what? Hardly anyone can go to the moon as it is, and it would be absurd to have wheelchair access on a hiking route.

So yeah, some of this stuff is absurd, and even pisses me off! But there is much of it that is warranted, even if it may cost a bit, or even if it pisses off a lot of people. we are all part of the same race here, and it is easy to forget one simple sentence once utterred by many a great peoples...

"There but for the grace of God go I..."

Ciao my bretheren of the holy chicken..

Dave [evil]

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-08-2004 08:37 AM

The problem is that the ADA goes far beyond outlawing discrimination against the handicapped, it requires business to go out of their way to specifically cater to their needs. While I certainly agree that refusing admission to someone just because they are in a wheelchair is wrong and should be illegal, I disagree that private business owners should be required by law to cater to the needs of the handicapped. Movie theatres do not guarantee non-handicapped people the seat of their choice, why should the handicapped get special privilege? The ADA as it exists now is just plain wrong, and needs to be changed.

I have a great deal of respect for the daily struggle that many of the handicapped go though because as Dave pointed out, "there by the grace of God..." could go any of us. My problem is being forced (indirectly) to pay for infrastructure to make it easier for them to overcome their handicaps. Take for example Buses. We are being required to spend hundreds of millions of dollars making public buses wheelchair accessible for such a small percentage of riders. Transit companies will never recoup this cost with extra riders. In fact, they lose seating space (as do movie theatres). Yes, I know that by making buses wheelchair accessible a certain percentage of people who were on welfare will be able to go out and work, but I honestly believe those who want to work will find a way, and those who don't, won't, just as it is with the non-handicapped.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-08-2004 09:18 AM

I don't feel a business should be required to provide the prime most occupied seating location as the domain of the handicapped that sits unused a larger percentage of the time and represents a larger cost since more square footage is requried for the same financial return

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-08-2004 11:09 AM

I wonder how IMAX theaters would deal with this issue. IMAX Dome style theaters would just have to be destroyed to comply with this ADA ruling. There's no way someone in a wheelchair would be able to sit close to the center of the seating area (near the projection port) in that kind of theater. But if he can't sit there, I suppose the lawyers feel like no one else should be able to do so either.

This reminds me of a lot of other fun things that have disappeared thanks to lawyers and lawsuits. You pretty much can't find a diving board anymore at public or commercial swimming pools. Diving boards are even a bad idea for private residence pools as well since they jack up insurance rates. All thanks to lawyers. The United States used to clean up in the Olympics diving competitions. Look for that to disappear real soon.

I support ADA, but only to a point. Some of the regulations actually force businesses to close. Small businesses already have too much to deal with these days, from rising worker's comp insurance rates to other unfunded mandates borne from overly complicated regulations. You practically have to have full time employees just to weed through the red tape of OSHA, EPA, DOT, etc. The rules and regs are fine, but the complication and forms and all sorts of other shit designed to keep lots of federal employees employed is pure bullshit. Some of the ADA stuff falls right along those lines.

Here's an example of how ridiculous the ADA stuff can be. Take signage. I'm getting cash out of a drive-thru ATM. The thing has braille on it! Blind people can't drive. And I'm sure they have sense enough not to go walking into a drive through banking traffic. But the braille is there to comply with the law.

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Ron Yost
Master Film Handler

Posts: 344
From: Paso Robles, CA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 07-08-2004 01:44 PM

Bobby,

At my bank, all of the ATM machines are identical, so I think it's a matter of simplicity .. only one type of machine needed for the whole place; they're all in compliance and, most of all, interchangeable with each other.

Of course, this is only one bank, and only my guess. I thought the braille on the drive-thru was odd at first, too. [Smile]

Ron Yost

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-08-2004 02:36 PM

Sometimes my family likes to use closed captions when watching a movie on television. Not that we are hearing-impaired, but sometimes it's useful to read the dialog that may be mumbled or overwhelmed by the sound mix.

I agree that if signs or ATM keyboards are being mass-produced for a market that includes the sight-impaired, having Braille on all the units is more efficient.

Bikers and in-line skaters enjoy curb cuts, as well as those in wheelchairs.

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