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Author Topic: Things are getting tough for calendar/rep houses Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-16-2008 06:19 PM                     Steve.. Nice post.. all of that said I feel you missed the most important part of digital... and that is distribution of light. In most of the latest digital projectors it is far superior to any film system around. Its the evenness of the light out of a digital system that I love the most. Now figure out how to place an integrator in the light path of a film projector and you'd really have something cooking. Mark  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 02-16-2008 06:44 PM                        Steve: very well stated. Louis  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-16-2008 07:37 PM                        Steve that is a very well arranged and thought out statement. It pretty well boils down the comparisons. I am a film buff I like the look on the screen of a great 70MM film. Maybe someday digital will get there (and it could be someday soon) but not yet.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-16-2008 07:41 PM                     But Mark...I just don't have that problem with light on film either...it is very evenly distributed. Mind you, I work a lot with Kinoton now and use a lot of ISCO Ultra Star PLUS lenses...if you look at the film distribution with the PSA-200, the Digital images don't have anything on film. The SMPTE/DCI specs for digital are not any better than for film. Perhaps, if film projectors used $6,000 lenses and had the light paths of digital, more cinemas would be more even...it is apples and oranges. I don't think there is any inherent reason why digital should have a flatter field....the light pipe is a necessary element to getting that light distributed to the three colors. Perhaps the lack of contrast gives you the perception of a flatter field of light. Perhaps the lamphouse and optics you use with film gives you the perception of a hot-spot. This is not an accusation but just conjecture. I have some customers that PREFER bluer light because it looks brighter...WHANT a hot spot because it looks brighter. Are they wrong? I would think so but I'm convinced people see different things. I like more detail...some people like more contrast...ideally I'll take both. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-16-2008 08:51 PM                     Well, most of the world doesn't have the luxury of Konotone lamphouse... My feelings are that the integraor rod approximates more the light distribution of Carbon Arc. Carbon did have the advantage of a much larger area to reflect back towards the film, a similar thing to what the integrator is doing for the imagers. Actually I find those $6,000.00 lenses quite inferior to film lenses... they are expensive because thena re in more limited productiona dn they are zooms. In fact the D-Cinema zooms are by comparison to others cheapo lenses... Decent TV camera and film camera zooms for instance are super expensive. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-16-2008 11:50 PM                     No, many don't use Kinoton lamphouses and I think the lenses also make a difference. Furthermore, so does the screen. I really find that a pictures look better on a Stewart screen but BOY are they expensive. To be honest, I don't have that much problem getting even light on other brands of lamphouses either, to varying degrees. Certainly I haven't found that DCinema makes a world of difference to the eveness of illumination. I would think that the use of gain screens (greater than 1.3 in particular) would actually lead to less even illumination...the characteristic of Pearl screens (1.5 - 1.8 generally), unless properly curved (and it isn't the silly 1:20 rule) are going to be less even. Just today, I was on an emergency call at a theatre that had one of my curved screens. (One of the rectifiers had a bad contactor, dropped a leg...damn Irem and their too small of a contactor for the USA market). The consoles were Xetron (it was what Regal was buying at the time), the current owner renovated and stadiumized the complex some years ago...we had a curved screen installed in the big theatre at the time...we also installed ISCO Ultra Star Lenses (and Blue Star on Scope)...Simplex PR-1060 heads. The light was pretty damn decent and rather uniform too. I don't believe that anyone would put a DLP beside it and come away thinking the light was more uniform on the DLP...it would be other things. Who knows, maybe your eyes key off on the light uniformity thing. Thats just it...I'm convinced people respond differently to visual cues just like we do to audible cues. Christ some people can actually sit through a scratched up dirty film and NOT see ANYTHING wrong! I think DCinema's ability to deliver a color balanced image in a very predictable and consistant manner is a trait that a film system does not have. Forgetting if you can get your film system to hit D55 or D54 (and with Xenon, you really can't since to be at 5400K you are off the daylight curve due to the xenon light source)...each reel of film seems to be different in color. Who hasn't seen a reel change where everything shifts Yellow or Blue? You don't get that in DCinema. While I believe that there are some DCinema machines not properly color timed for one reason or another, at least it won't be shifting during the show! Digital projectors afford the opportunity for every theatre to have a properly color balanced projector without spending anymore money on special reflectors or filters. Then again, most people's eyes will tell them everything is fine after a few minutes anyway...that damn brain keeps thinking! It is when there is a sudden change that your brain gets cues that something is off. Believe it or not, the PSA and PSC meters for us were originally for trying to keep 2-proj. systems looking looking uniform on changeovers and the PSA REALLY does a great job of that. The PSC quantifies the differences and can allow better matching of reflectors and noting differences in lenses. One of clients is Colorlab...they rejected a lens because it shifted the color too much on their QC machine. Those guys that color time film have well trained eyes for such things. Their QC machine can even simulate tungstun...which required a matched set of reflector, lens and filter. For Digital...that would be a macro to a preset PCF file. Then again, why would you need a digital movie so color timed? My mind rambles again... Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-17-2008 09:52 AM                     I donno what exactly it is... I certainly WON'T dispute that you can get flat light from a film projector... did that all the time for Dailies setups. However if the integrator didn't afford more even illumination in some important aspect (its very job) then the manuffacturers certainly wouldn't be placing that thousand dollar plus part in every D-Cinema projector... there are other ways of flattenning out the light that are far less expensive! Perhaps its also that there is no shutter causing a flicker... What ever it is and I don't believe it has to do with being able to perfectly color balance I have come to much prefer the light from a properly setup digital projector. No disagreement on the PSA and PSC... these meters do an extremely fine job as do Stewart Screens... they are not only expensive screens but also really too flimsy and thin for regular theater usage... they also polute the atmosphere with the "Pour In Place" method of chamical evaporation that is required to produce them. Mark  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-17-2008 10:13 AM                        Steve, Mark weather it is digital or film the greatest problem's in this industries come down to money. What is spent at the lab and what is spent in the individual theater. Lamp houses and bulbs that are inadequate for the screen they are showing refusal to use bi-amping by owners when necessary (which is any auditorium in my opinion) very large auditoriums with bi-amp that should have tri-amps. Theater owners refusing to replace worn out equipment forcing the local manager's and projectionist to continually repair things that should be replaced. There is a real habit in this industry to think if the public can see it is important but if it is what makes the picture on screen or the sound in the auditorium lets just get by for a while. The most important things in the theater are not the fixtures in the bathrooms or the what the concession area looks like or how neat the carpet is, the most important things are the picture that is on the screen and the sound that accompanies that picture. To many theaters put the least amount of thought, effort and money in to this area. This is not limited to the mom and pop theaters at all. The big guys have this tendency to spend big bucks on the bigger theaters better sound, better picture and by the time you get to the small theater it is a cracker box poorly lit, with inferior sound. The customer going to the smallest house pays as much for his ticket as the guy going to biggest he has the right to expect the same quality in that movie but to often he isn't going to get that. Ron  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-17-2008 01:44 PM                     Ron, Its not the old worn out gear thats the problem, bringing that stuff back to proper operation is the easy part... A Super Simplex can if done right put out an image every bit as good as a kinoton!! Out in this area the problem is that theater help is not paid enough to give a dam about any aspect of anything. With payola at 25K to 30K a year that is simply not enough pay for a manager that is working 70 plus hours a week... Likewise in the booth the same problem exists. It IS NOT a lack of professional or Union people at all... enough pay would attract good people instead of those that don't know how to add up 2+2. Take the average theater owner out here... if the $$ is rolling in why should he change anything? We have new theaters with NC levels in the mid 50'S in St. George but the owners don't give a crap because the location is the same as owning a legal money printing press. Sadly, there are only two or three theaters I will watch stuff at in the Mountain States... One is The America in Casper, Mikes Theater in Forsyth, and Megaplex's Gateway Theater... The rest are either dumps, have many things wrong with them or you feel more like a head of cattle. Mark  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-17-2008 02:29 PM                        Mark, I can't even get them to spend the money on parts. I am also faced with platters that don't have parts manufactured for them anymore and a few we can't even find out who manufactured them. But weather it is help or equipment their wont spend a dime mentality is the real problem.  |  IP: Logged Ramon Lamarca Marques Expert Film Handler Posts: 186 From: Edgware, England, UK Registered: Feb 2006 posted 02-17-2008 04:15 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag Art is never about the media and neither is story telling. The media can certainly play into (or detract from the) art. It isn't the film persay anymore than music was about a diamond (or steel) needle wiggling about a groove. This is a very interesting post. Nevertheless, I think there is an important difference between audio and image. With audio, technology has always tried to get as close as possible to the real world, the idea is that the recorded element should reproduce the original sounds as they were when recorded. With images, the photographer does not necessarily want to replicate reality exactly, this is why cinematographers still choose to film from time to time in black and white, this is why some cinematographers prefer the grainy look of 16mm, this is why some prefer wider aspect ratios and some prefer narrower,… I think with film the media is important, as important it is oil on canvas or watercolours for a painting. This is why Fritz Lang said that Cinemascope was only good to film snakes or why Hitchcock never used anamorphic for his films. Film integrates many arts: writing, photography, acting, music, … the media is one of the elements in the final result, for some of us it is an important element. As a member of the audience I find the stillness inherent to digital odd, funnily enough, I prefer the slight flicker of film than the steadiness of digital, but this is probably because my eyes are used to film. I try not to go to cinemas these days because I leave disappointed. Those cinemas which show film, show very poor prints that have gone through digital intermediate and digital 2k is a medium I do not really like and so I avoid digital screenings as well. I mainly go to some screenings of old prints and consume the rest of my film diet at home. I will go back to cinemas when they bring back big screens, and an image quality that equals or surpasses that of good Todd-AO prints (70mm) or Technirama prints (35mm).  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-17-2008 04:22 PM                     Ron, I guess you can always pour Corn Starch in the gas tank... then they have to repair the stuff. Actually, you would be a good candidate for conversion to digital although replacing the gear thats obsolete still isn't all that bad from a cost standpoint... even if you have the finest projection equipment available you still have the crappy prints to put up with... Thats why I say you're a good candidate for digital. Sad that Ramon can't enjoy the movie going experience any longer... watching them at home still leaves out the audience interaction part which is one of the more important aspects of the experience of seeing it in theaters... perhaps his neck of the woods has similar problems as mine with no decent theaters that exist, or should I say no decent theater operators that exist. For now in my area the movie going experience has been made much better by digital so I continue to go to the one plex that fortunately is all Digital. My experinece there has been all positive. Mark  |  IP: Logged Ron Funderburg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 814 From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-17-2008 04:36 PM                        Mark, I am a good candidate but the owners aren't, long story short they aren't interested digital will not be in use in their life time. No matter what you show them they don't buy! At any rate I will endure I have done this all my life I'm not likely to walk away now! You can't compare watching at home to watching in a theater it is apples and oranges! Ron  |  IP: Logged Ben Wales Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 602 From: Southampton. England Registered: Jul 99 posted 02-17-2008 04:47 PM                     quote: Mark Gulbrandsen Sad that Ramon can't enjoy the movie going experience any longer... watching them at home still leaves out the audience interaction part which is one of the more important aspects of the experience Sadly in Multiplexes you are also get Kids on their Dam Mobiles or simply talking alll the away through or throwing Pop Corn . I agree with Ramon about the general Cinema Experience and selective where I go these days as well. There is stil hope out there for Rep Cinemas, in the UK we have the Rex Cimema in Berkampsted, it's a fantastic venue - good screen presentation and clean. Both Steve & Mark have made some valued points on this subject and I agree with them as I have same views on this.  |  IP: Logged Ramon Lamarca Marques Expert Film Handler Posts: 186 From: Edgware, England, UK Registered: Feb 2006 posted 02-17-2008 04:59 PM                     quote: You can't compare watching at home to watching in a theater it is apples and oranges! I agree… but I was born and grew up in Barcelona and the cinema palaces we had there in the 70s and 80s were amazing. Going to the pictures was a big experience. Big halls, amazing decoration, curtains, ushers,… and yes 70mm! It was about presentation. Cinemas had their personality. There were amazing first-screeners and plenty of repertoire and double-bill cinemas. Now, even though I live in London, nothing compares to that, the difference is abysmal. The prices are exorbitant and it is certainly not good value for money. It is very difficult to go from the very best to mediocre and this is what happens to me these days. I used to love going to the pictures and it was always a thrilling experience, now it is a depressing experience most of the times. In many of the last screenings I have been to the screen has been cropped to show the main feature in scope and so the ads look bigger than the main feature! The amount of ads is unbelievable! Some times, there are even annoying kids who keep moving from one screen to another in the multiplex (regardless of the rating!), masking incorrectly set,… the list is endless. There are few good cinemas left in London and they are quite far away from where I leave in the outskirts. I know from experience what you say about sharing the film with others. I remember seeing one of Peter Seller’s films with some other 1,000 people in Barcelona (it was a long time ago I do not remember the title) and it was amazing, sometimes it was difficult to follow the dialogue because the audience was laughing so much. I have always defended the cinema experience. I am just sad that cinema exhibition is at such low level.  |  IP: Logged

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