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Author Topic: Going digital Frank Cox Film God Posts: 2234 From: Melville Saskatchewan Canada Registered: Apr 2011 posted 06-20-2014 07:48 PM                        When I had my digital setup installed, I closed my theatre for a week, starting on Friday. A couple of friends of mine helped me to get the old film equipment out, tear down the old screen and install the new speakers over the weekend. The tech showed up on Monday to do the work, and everything was up and running by Thursday afternoon. We did our first complete "test show" on Thursday night, then opened again to the public for the regular Friday night show.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-20-2014 08:16 PM                        We weren't closed at all for the digital install, but we're usually closed on Thursdays so that worked out perfect for us.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-21-2014 09:08 AM                     It really is all over the place. When we are doing just your basic conversion with two formats on either constant width/constant height screens and either minimal or no sound system work (just a D/A or a processor swap)...then it is the better part of two days for one screen...typical. However, after that...it is about 2 PER DAY. There is a bit of an overhead to loading in/out that a single screen takes the brunt of (and typically has the worst path to the booth and the most entrenched environment. But when you start adding in a new sound system (speakers, speaker wiring...etc.) or a litany of formats, sources...etc...then the time goes up...way up! Everything gets multiplied. It is going to take you at least twice as long to do a 3D alignment as a 2D...if it is a Real-D XL...you have the XL box to align and optimize and it mucks with the image size so you are setting four lens presets, four screen files...etc. For Dolby 3D you are doing a could dozen extra light/color measurements...etc. No one thing is any great time but you add it all up...and it ADDS UP. Does the tech when they change the processor really tune up the sound or do they just "connect it" and maybe balance it? We use a D2 with a 4-mic plex...it takes time to set up, use (properly) and tear down. The results are better than just an auto-eq or a cut/paste...but it takes time. Also, we will typically run content on each screen to judge picture/sound/lip sync...etc. That takes a few minutes too...Spend 15-20minutes checking things out and you've nearly lost 1/8th of a work day. It all adds up fast. I've been told first hand about installers that are so judged on speed that they CAN'T adjust the sound...only if it is so bad that the customer complains will they do it and it throws their time-tables off. How about when you find that the focus isn't even or the convergence is off? I've seen it on all three DLP brands. You'd be amazed what a time-suck those can be. Even with Barco, by far the easiest to converge or Sheimpflug, if you spend 15-30 minutes getting those right...you've again cut heavily into the day's time that most do NOT plan on in their estimates. However, if you get those spot on...it really does make a difference in the overall appearance. Then it also really depends on the booth preparedness. We normally have a minimum threshold before we will step on site. Moving the power to things like twist-lock plugs can allow the electrician to prep the booth before we get there and that greatly speeds up the conversion. So the honest answer is...there is no set time a particular conversion takes. It all depends on what work is actually to be done and what condition the works site is. For us, the conversion (with 2 techs) has taken anywhere from 1/2 day to a week but they were not nearly the same job in those two examples.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-21-2014 12:58 PM                     I was going to comment here but Steve really nailed it. If you hire GOOD installers (and Cardinal is a good example), they can't knock it out in record time because they will go through and perform all of the above. Steve is right, there is a big company that put a 4 hour cap per screen on the installer's time. Whatever wasn't done in 4 hours just didn't get done. I've been told this first hand as well. It's the reason why so many digital installs just don't look or sound very good. (Well that and the fact there are way too many techs out there who just don't give a flip and everything to them is "close enough/let's go home".) Scheimfleug/boresight and convergence make such a huge difference in the picture, and yet those are the two things MOST installers won't even bother with. Few actually bring binoculars (we prefer a telescope) for performing these adjustments. I've also seen installers make adjustments with their naked eyes from the booth. Lens and screen files should also be done from the audience's perspective, not from the booth. The one thing Steve didn't mention is for the places that also want to preserve their film alongside the new digital. That REALLY adds more time to it since they almost always share a sound system and frequently the film moves a few feet to one side requiring all new alignment, aperture plates, etc. Our standard install work day is based upon a minimum of 12 hours, not the usual 8-hours-and-go-back-to-the-hotel-room. Even with that being said, we aren't the fastest out there (yes I'm talking to you Mr-we-do-it-in-4-hours people), but I'm perfectly fine with that and I have found any client that truly wants a quality presentation is fine with it as well. Even if there is one extra day lost over hiring the speed-installers, the next 10 years of presentations will be of a higher quality. It's well worth it.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-21-2014 01:21 PM                     quote: Brad Miller Our standard install work day is based upon a minimum of 12 hours, not the usual 8-hours-and-go-back-to-the-hotel-room. I've never met an 8 hour a day technician in the 37 years I've been doing this work. There is one excuse for a short day and that is... you are closed out by running shows at an early starting theater. Everyone I have ever met in all these years including factory service people are 12 to 16 hour a day people. I have seen Bobby Franklin's interior people work 24 hours straight to get a screen up and running. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-21-2014 01:38 PM                     Yeah...I didn't mention film and that certainly adds in...but that falls under my "it all depends on the job and what is to be done". We have one customer that has a 3-plex...had three Kinoton FP30E projectors...on one screen, they rebuilt the projection wall from being a film projector, view port and video port to a three projector wall with view ports for the film projectors (one of the film view ports doubles for the digital). Now do you really think that installation time will compare to a "typical" one? How about that we were to keep the theatre on-screen the whole time (they were on screen each night). They brought people in that made plastic rooms during the various stages of "Demo" to keep the dust off of the operating equipment. Step 1, move the film projector to the "video" port and move the platter out of the way and recreate a film path. Demo the left part of the wall and rebuild with the new #1 port. Move the film projector into its new permanent home. Demo the rest of the wall and rebuild as a 3 projector wall. Move in the new DCinema projector, move the sound/video racks to their new home (had to move to make room where the #2 film machine will live). Move the #2 film projector in. This took several trips and multiple days...as you can imagine. Note the wall supporting I-Beam(s). When you cut that many holes in the wall, it can come down! Note too, this wall used to be an exterior wall many years ago so any cut is also going through brick. The Sound and Video rack...just after it was roughed in. We were fortunate in that the racks in their previous location we had them flexed in with Jboxes so that the racks could roll. As such, there were already jboxes so the worst that happened was that some cables had to be extended.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 06-21-2014 01:39 PM                        In the film era, I went in at midnight and worked up to the 1pm show; got in 13 hours that way. More if you arrive at 10pm and prep/open cartons, etc. (More staff help with grunt work, too.)  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-21-2014 02:02 PM                     There's a certain amount of fixed time per site, load in/out, general familiarization, deciding electrician tasks and explaining them to the electrician, etc. For multiplexes we did two screens a day, canceling afternoon shows but on screen for the early evening. If a single screen is ready to convert it's usually a one day job doing the actual conversion, one day's shows lost. Usually I will stay one night, doing the conversion on day 1, then training and familiarization on day 2, then leave. More remote sites I will stay 2 nights to be on hand for the first public shows. Site conditions can make a huge difference: if I have to disconnect the 35 and get it out of the way, that takes some time. If a new port is needed because the original ones are really unsuitable - not unusual with polarized 3D - that takes time and more dialog with contractors. Then there are the unpredictables. A recent remote conversion had the shipment come from our shop on a skid plus a separate carton. The access was not suitable for a skid truck so the driver broke down the skid and delivered 10 pieces instead of two, but left the separate carton on the truck. The manager signed for the delivery, unable to confirm that he had 2 pieces with 10 in the lobby. When I arrived days later it took me a while to realize "I don't have a processor or monitor or..." and start tracking. Remote places will usually take longer. There are always surprises, and if an ethernet cable or whatever is required you're in trouble when there's no store in town that has any. I drive with a lot of "what-if" stuff but fly-in jobs mean leaving most of that behind. Unless there's a huge screw-up or some massive surprises, I don't see how a single screen could possibly take a week. Even with a new screen, new speakers, new sound rack... taking that long means the owner chose not to hire professionals to do the work. It isn't super hard to do all these things but people doing them for the first time will take a crazy long time - and require constant supervision to minimize mistakes. Try explaining how to put up a screen sheet to the owner's son and his high school buddies.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-21-2014 03:40 PM                     Mark, you clearly have not met the "big boy" installers. I know what you are trying to say, as any reputable company has done the whole work-around-the-clock-to-get-open routine. My longest day was 30 hours straight with 10 minutes here and there to eat a meal in the booth that someone brought me from a fast food place. Other masking crews I've seen work around the clock as well. I've also worked with GCs that have worked around the clock. The big boy installers? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's definitely not typical.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-21-2014 04:10 PM                     Actually I've met a few of them Brad....We managed to keep them out of this area for the most part. Most of those people are now unemployed. Some of the large installers have enough hands to work two or theee shifts. Then its 8 hours plus they can't afford to pay over time on what they charge per booth.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-21-2014 04:35 PM                     quote: Mark Gulbrandsen I've never met an 8 hour a day technician in the 37 years I've been doing this work. ...less than 3 hours later... quote: Mark Gulbrandsen Actually I've met a few of them Brad Come on Mark, get your story straight!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-21-2014 10:51 PM                     The story is straight Brad. I just don't happen to consider those guys real technicians. Real technicians are in this business for life, not just to do some installs and go back to the IT or fast food world! Mark  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 06-21-2014 11:19 PM                     Mark, we finally upgraded to 2.71 to rid of this issue that I mentioned. - Monte  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-21-2014 11:56 PM                     Well Mark, it appears we are back in agreement.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-24-2014 11:46 AM                     Monte... With SX-3000's and being so new it is important to upgrade to the new releases asap IF YOU ARE HAVING ISSUES. If you call GDC tech support they WILL email you or at least tell you over the phone what bugs the updates will take care of. If you aren't having any issues then don't bother to update. People that are still ingesting via USB will basically have no issues until they add a CRU bay. The current version Build 271v2 has been really good. Also be sure to keep your TMS up to date, doing so is uber easy. The last two versions of TMS have made a remarkable difference in the stability of the app. Mark  |  IP: Logged

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