Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Blade II - Flat instead Scope. Huh? (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Author Topic: Blade II - Flat instead Scope. Huh?
David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 03-13-2002 01:16 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[NOTE: A COUPLE EDITS HAVE BEEN MADE TO FILL IN SOME OF THE BLANKS WITH INFO FROM OTHER POSTS]

List of the Best Picture winners going back to 1990, and their projected format. I can't remember every picture and/or I have not seen everything on the list, but here's what I remember without doing a lot of research. And I am not taking into account whether they were shot anamorphically or in Super 35 (that's a different debate):

Gladiator (scope)
American Beauty (scope)
Shakespeare In Love (scope)
Titanic (scope)
The English Patient (flat)
Braveheart (scope?)
Forrest Gump (scope)
Schindler's List (flat)
Unforgiven (scope)
Silence of the Lambs (flat)
Dances With Wolves (scope)

This year's Best Picture nominees are:

A Beautiful Mind (flat)
Gosford Park (scope)
In The Bedroom (scope)
Lord of the Rings (scope)
Moulin Rouge (scope)

This year's nominees for Cinematography are:

Amelie (scope)
Black Hawk Down (scope)
Lord of the Rings (scope)
The Man Who Wasn't There (flat)
Moulin Rouge (scope)

So [since 1990 anyway] projecting flat does not seem to be any assurance at all that a movie will be better-received by the Academy. In fact the list seems to say the opposite.

Now I admit that some movies are better-suited to 1.85 flat. Schindler's List is a perfect example. It would have been totally inappropriate to the material to shoot in scope.

So even though you may be correct about Spielberg's reasoning, the facts seem to suggest he is wrong. In fact the data suggests the opposite. Spielberg's boxoffice disappointments were mediocre or worse movies period, and their lousy reception by the public and the Academy seemed to have little to do with the format they were shot in.



 |  IP: Logged

Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 02:09 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Dave, I am a bit confused about what you were saying about Cameron's 4:3 video transfers. How can they show the bottom half of the frame and be 4:3? Super 35 produces a wide aspect ratio, so how does he transfer to video without pan and scan? I am just curious.

Actually, super 35 does not inherently produce a wide aspect ratio. It uses the silent aperture, which creates a 1.33:1 aspect ratio. The only reason it produces a wide ratio is because it is customary to crop out a 2.39:1 rectangle from the 1.33:1 image. Sometimes, a common topline approach is used (the Jim Carrey movie "The Cable Guy") and in other cases the two images have a common center. Actually, super35 could be used to produce movies of any aspect ratio. I believe "Spaceballs" was done in super35 and was 1.85:1. This is a rarity, though. There is no reason that, say, a TV show couldn't be filmed in super35. That would produce a 4:3 image using every bit of area between the perforations.
See Super35 illustration and explanation here.

Back in 1997 and 1998, I could spot a scope movie made in super 35 because they looked grainy. Pushing Tin was a good example of a very grainy super 35 movie. In recent years, the quality of movies made in super35 has improved, but I still prefer Panavision-style shooting for scope movies.

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site


 |  IP: Logged

Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 02:24 PM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Evans, I was under the impression that those shooting Super 35, like Cameron, were shooting 3-perf pulldown Super 35. (Look here for nice diagrams of the different 35 and Super 35 formats) Once I read your post, what Dave was saying makes sense to me. Since Super 35 3 perf is a possiblity, I don't really understand why you wouldn't use it, unless you are making a big consideration for the home video market, which Cameron undoubtedly is. Thanks for the clarification.


 |  IP: Logged

Ron Lacheur
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 650
From: British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-13-2002 03:00 PM      Profile for Ron Lacheur   Email Ron Lacheur   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
didn't Cameron's brother invent Super 35?

 |  IP: Logged

Charles Everett
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: New Jersey
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 03-13-2002 03:06 PM      Profile for Charles Everett   Email Charles Everett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David S: American Beauty was scope. The English Patient was flat.

David A: Hook rang up $119M. Adjust that for ticket price inflation and it would be around $160M in today's dollars. Flop? No. Major hit? Yes.

To clarify the 007 reference: The first 3 Bond movies (Dr. No, From Russia with Love, Goldfinger) are all flat. Starting with Thunderball every Bond has been scope.


 |  IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-13-2002 05:17 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Hook" was a critical flop. Not a commercial flop, although it didn't do too well by Speilberg standards.

 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-13-2002 06:00 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have put my two cents in on a few items.

On James Bond films, most have been in 'scope. But in addition to "Dr. NO", "Goldfinger" and "From Russia With Love" being either 1.66:1 or 1.85:1, Roger Moore's first couple Bond efforts ("Live and Let Die" and "The Man With the Golden Gun") were also shot flat. All of the Bond movies after that have been in 'scope.

About home video framing of Super35, it varies a great deal. While the full 4-perf 35mm camera aperture is open for Super35, that full image is not typically what makes it into a "full frame" VHS release. Commonly, the picture has one safe action crop for 1.85:1, taking away some of the top and bottom of the image. Then the 1.33:1 TV frame can be extracted out of the center of that. So you are still losing a bit off the top, bottom and sides. Sure, some shots in a transfer can use that full 35mm frame. But with most scenes the composition will be far too loose. I've seen a number of Super35 transfers to home video that featured shots just as heavily panned and scanned as any anamorphically filmed release. I certainly saw such things with an on-the-fly comparision between "Fight Club" on DVD and a full frame broadcast on HBO. Finally, your visual effects shots are usually rendered/produced in the aspect ratio of the release format, so if it is a Super35 release, pretty much all the effects shots will be in 2.35:1 and heavily panned and scanned.

I think Super35 can only have a chance to exceed anamorphic 35mm in quality when optically enlarged to 70mm. I see it having no quality advantage over anamorphic otherwise. Super35 is a format designed more for convenience rather than quality.

At any rate, I hope Steven Spielberg will shoot the next "Indiana Jones" sequel in 'scope on 35mm like all the others in the saga rather than shooting it flat so it goes to home video easier. I also hope he can convince producer George Lucas not to pull a DLP gag with it either.

And yes, I do think George Lucas has really broke the continuity of "Star Wars" by insisting on videotaping "Episode II" and "Episode III" rather than shooting them on film. It breaks continuity even further since these next two installments will be video-ed using spherical lenses rather than anamorphic elements. I do realize Panavision and Sony tried hard to come up with an anamorphic lens pack that would work with the HD cameras. They just couldn't make it happen. I suppose some software engineers at CineLook could come up with a filter to imitate the depth of field and distorsion effects seen in actualy anamorphic photography, but since so many people think "digital is perfect" why bother?

Finally, I think sequels need to be able to stand on their own as good movies and not rehash the original. But doing this is a matter of development, script work, quality of direction and acting. Changing film formats alone just to be different is not a good move. I have a bad feeling "Blade II" is going to be a hollow and derivative movie instead of bringing exciting new things to the series. I hope I am wrong about it. The fact that it was shot flat makes it look more like a straight-to-video/dvd item than it would have had it been "scoped".

 |  IP: Logged

Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 03-13-2002 06:18 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
More revealing than looking at a list of Best Picture winners to see if Hollywood has a bias against 'Scope films being serious art, I think we should look at a complete lists of Best Picture nominations over the past decade.

As for the anamorphic cinematography "artifacts" in the newer Star Wars movies... they have most certainly added some to the CGI special effects you can readily see in the latest trailer (which opens Friday at a theatre near you... very near you, perhaps... like, maybe next door).

 |  IP: Logged

Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 06:35 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, Shakespear in love is SCOPE and Silence of the Lambs is Flat.

Rocky 1976 flat
Annie Hall 1977 flat
The Deer Hunter 1978 SCOPE
Kramer vs. Kramer 1979 Flat
Ordinary People 1980 flat ?
Chariots of Fire 1981 flat ?
Gandhi 1982 scope
Terms of Endearment 1983 flat
Amadeus 1984 scope
Out of Africa 1985 flat
Platoon 1986 flat
The Last Emperor 1987 scope
Rainman 1988 flat
Driving Miss Daisy 1989 flat

 |  IP: Logged

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-13-2002 07:23 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you look at the original VHS release of Terminator 2, you can see the full aspect of the Super 35 image. An example would be where Arnold smashes the payphone to get a quarter. In the VHS version you can see the bottom of the pay phone and how it is rigged to smash. In the film or letterboxed versions of the movie, you cannot see the bottom of the phone and it pans down right as Arnold smashes it. The entire movie is this way. I think I still have that VHS tape laying around somewhere. If I do I'll post comparison pics.

 |  IP: Logged

David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 03-13-2002 07:27 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So looking at Darryl's list which goes back to the late 70s, it looks like either there's a trend toward more scope and fewer flat releases, since around 1990; or the Academy voters' tastes have changed (unlikely). Anyone know of an online database or some other list of the total number of releases for each year, and the percentage of them which were flat vs. scope. ? (or maybe this is getting a little too arcane) If the raw number of scope films released is far greater than the number of them which are flat, then naturally the Academy would be recognizing more scope films and the format might not make much difference at all in the Academy choices.


 |  IP: Logged

Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 08:08 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think just productions have increased the past few years since you have a choice in the types of lens you can use. Anamorphic or Super 35. Before you only had one choice as far as I know for scope.

 |  IP: Logged

David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 03-13-2002 08:15 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's what I mean. Lenses and film stock have gotten a lot better (John Pytlak?). So why is Spielberg hung up on shooting flat?

 |  IP: Logged

Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 08:18 PM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone know if MInority Report is Flat or Scope. The teaser trailer I saw looks like it could be scope. If so Spielberg has broken his trend.

 |  IP: Logged

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-13-2002 08:33 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Got the pics.

Here they are:


Here is a direct capture from the VHS version.


Here is a direct capture from same exact frame of the DVD.

Draw your own conclusions about how Super 35 is transferred to home video.


 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.