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Author Topic: Is this really the end for carbons?
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-08-2002 10:29 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Film-Tech "Manuals" section has a complete set of the National Projector Carbon Bulletins. Great reading, with much good information on screen illumination:
National Projector Carbon Bulletins

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 08-08-2002 01:15 PM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stephen, yes there are a fair number of indy's in Cumbria, to this day. Lemme see now.

Alhambra, Penrith. Graves Cumberland Ltd
Alhambra, Keswick. Graves Cumberland Ltd
Gaeity, Whitehaven. Graves Cumberland Ltd
Plaza, Workington. Graves Cumberlans Ltd
Zepherelys (sp) Ambleside
Theatre by the Lake, Keswick
Bowness
Cockermouth Arts Centre
Lonsdale, Carlisle
??? Theatre, Whitehaven
Brewery Arts Centre, Kendal

And probably more I've forgotten.

how can yo miss the Lonsdale?! It's about a 30 second walk from Carlisle Railway Station!

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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
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 - posted 08-08-2002 06:15 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
how can yo miss the Lonsdale?! It's about a 30 second walk from Carlisle Railway Station!

Probably by walking in the wrong direction; also, it was raining so hard I could hardly see ten metres in front of me. I remember getting to some sort of market, with canopies over it. I stood under there for a few minutes, but there was no sign of the rain stopping, so I went back to the station.



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Jon Miller
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From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 08-08-2002 09:14 PM      Profile for Jon Miller   Email Jon Miller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The talk of carbons and carbon savers compelled me to dig up this jig given to me about ten years ago by an old-time projectionist...

This jig could make carbon savers for 6mm, 7mm, or 8mm "Suprex"carbons used in Magnarcs, Enarcs, and the like. Take a small rectangle of thin sheet copper or a scrap of metal from a coffee can, bend it widthwise around a die of the desired size, insert the ends of the bent sheet into the slotted tool, slip the tool into the jig, twist the handle until the metal cinches tightly around the die and remove...voila, homemade carbon saver.

Incidentally, the extremely talented man who gave me the jig also, around the same time, graciously lent me his original of the National Projector Carbon Bulletins for me to photocopy. It is from that photocopy where a surprisingly oft-referenced treasure trove of information on this site originated from. (Sorry if I sounded like I was tooting my horn...)


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Randy Stankey
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From: Erie, Pennsylvania
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 - posted 08-08-2002 10:29 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The guy who taught me to burn carbons showed me something that made me go, "Huh?!"...

Using 13.5mm joinables in an Ashcraft Super Cinex he would open the door while running; loosen the clamp; grab the free end of the still-lit carbon with a pair of Bakelite fuse pulling pliers; slide on a new stick tap it with the handle of the nut driver; crank back the clamp arm and tighten it again... All in about 15 seconds.

Doing this, he could keep the lamp lit continuously as long as the negative stick would hold out!

His explanation was that the only part of the carbon rod that's electrically live is the part between the silver jaws and the flame of the arc. It's possible to touch the rest of the rod without getting bitten. Using the Bakelite pliers was mostly to protect the hand from any heat and to help you keep the left end of the rod steady while you moved the arm back to the starting position.

It's something I would never consider trying myself but it's enough to make you give that slack-jawed, wide-eyed look that Keanu Reeves is so famous for... "Whoah!!"

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Craig Hanham
Film Handler

Posts: 79
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Oct 2001


 - posted 08-08-2002 10:41 PM      Profile for Craig Hanham   Email Craig Hanham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
GEE look at you all reminiscing about carbon while here am i dreaming of xenon.
The supplier I use gets Sunny carbons from Japan. Seem to be reliable.
As for savers I thought about getting some but since I can burn down to 1" in my magnarcs I couldn't see the point. Now if I could join them well...
My predecessor saved the stubs for selling to recyclers for the copper, but how many tonnes of stubs do you need for a kilogram of copper?
As I show mostly Bollywood films I save all the 4" rods for anything with a short reel. It's amazing how you learn to look at a reel and guesstimate the amount of rod needed.
Though I get plenty of sweaty palm moments as I get to the last few minutes of reel and rod. Then there's the odd time when you back the arc slightly out of focus to get that extra minute of burning.
So if any of you poor sentimentalists are in the neighbourhood look me up. I'm sure I can find a reel or two for you to play with, but as soon as I am allowed the money, ARC BEGONE and in with the xenon and 10,000' reels. Since I have to check and tidy all the splices anyway I may as well make up a reel.
But then again when showing yet another same bollywood story the carbons and changeovers keep me occupied.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-09-2002 05:56 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It seems to me that just about all of the rew remaining places running carbons are, like you, keen to convert. The main reason they have not yet done so seems to be the cost. Given that the running costs of xenon are lower than carbon, this surely cannot continue, and the smaller the demand for carbons the higher the cost will be.

Is there anyone that is still running carbons today, wishes to continue doing so, and thinks they will still be able to in five years time? I doubt it.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-09-2002 05:58 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey, an 'over 50 posts' icon on a thread I started, I didn't think that would happen.

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-09-2002 08:20 AM      Profile for Bernard Tonks   Email Bernard Tonks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pete wrote (on Carlisle),

quote:
Yup the Lonsdale is two buildings, one with 3 screens and towers and the other is two screens with platters. The owner, Alan Towers, is a top bloke, I think it belonged to his father before him. It was ABC originally. Jimmy the chief has worked there since the end of WWII, and is still working, now in his 70's

Wonderful that this Independent is still operating, with a Warner multiplex also in Carlisle. It must be tough competition though.

Carlisle, Cumbria.

Lonsdale City Cinemas, Warwick Road CA1 1DN. Seats: 1:374 2:220 3:54 and at Mary Street CA1 1QR. Seats: 4:119 5:112

Warner Village, Botchergate. 08702 406020 7 screens / 1,500 seats.


There was a cinema that the owner decided to close, as his chief projectionist was finally forced to retire being over 80 years of age. Must be something good in nitrate film and carbon fumes.



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Pete Naples
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From: Dunfermline, Scotland
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 - posted 08-09-2002 10:39 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Lonsdale isn't doing great business, but it is doing enough to survive. The Warner Village isn't doing great business either. I'd hazard a guess and say that the Warner has way way higher overheads than the Lonsdale, but n the other other hand they have deeper pockets. It is good to see the small family owned and run cinema surviving in the face of faceless corporatism! He's one a hell of a lot to the place, good seats, big screens, air conditioning, Digital in 4 out of 5 screens and the biggest has EX too. All the toys that the punters want.

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Scott Norwood
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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-12-2002 11:41 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So I spoke with the head operator at the Avon Cinema tonight. They're running 7mm and 8mm carbons in Enarc lamphouses. He seemed to be basically happy with "Eagle" carbons, but complained that the National carbons had gotten worse in recent years as they used less and less copper coating. In any case, he's getting a nice picture with the "Eagle" carbons. If there is any availability problem, he doesn't seem to be aware of it.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-13-2002 03:30 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Carbons are still available in the uk, but the rane is quite limited, these are the only ones I have been able to find listed:

ACA918P Marble Double Eagle Carbons 9 x 18 Pos Box of 50
ACA818P Marble Double Eagle Carbons 8 x 18 Pos Box of 50
ACA914P Marble Double Eagle Carbons 9 x 14 Pos Box of 50
ACA814P Marble Double Eagle Carbons 8 x 14 Pos Box of 50
ACA714P Marble Double Eagle Carbons 7 x 14 Pos Box of 50
ACA812P Marble Double Eagle Carbons 8 x 12 Pos Box of 50
ACA712P Marble Double Eagle Carbons 7 x 12 Pos Box of 50
ACA812N Marble Double Eagle Carbons 8 x 12 Neg Box of 50
ACA712N Marble Double Eagle Carbons 7 x 12 Neg Box of 50
ACA79N Marble Double Eagle Carbons 7 x 9 Neg Box of 50
ACA69N Marble Double Eagle Carbons 6 x 9 Neg Box of 50

If you've got something like Super Core-lites, or at the other extreme, Bell & Howell 609s, it looks like you're out of luck.

I did manage to find quite a large stock of old ones for 609s in a couple of places, and I don't use them very often, so I should be ok for a few years at least.

The other problem is that they are quite expensive now, compared to xenons.


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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
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 - posted 08-13-2002 03:53 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Incidentally, the extremely talented man who gave me the jig also, around the same time, graciously lent me his original of the National Projector Carbon Bulletins for me to photocopy. It is from that photocopy where a surprisingly oft-referenced treasure trove of information on this site originated from. (Sorry if I sounded like I was tooting my horn...)

Jon, Many thanks for providing the carbon bulletins. As you say, much useful information. Unfortunatly, pages 4 and 5 seem to be missing from number 2. Were these missing from your original set? If so, does anyone else have a copy of these pages that they could scan, to complete the set.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-13-2002 05:02 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Yikes! Did you do that, err, voluntarily? My weekly trips from York to Newcastle are bad enough: the trains are always late, old, dirty, freezing in winter/boiling in summer, full of teenage yobs screaming into mobile 'phones (even in the carriage where you're not supposed to use them), impossible to get any work done in and generally an ordeal. The only reaon I use them at all is because parking is virtually impossible anywhere near our Newcastle office. And then there's the cost - £26 return. I estimate that making the trip by car would cost me £10-12 (taking into account everything - petrol, maintenance costs, insurance, tax and depreciation). If you bear in mind that all motoring costs are taxed to hell and that rail travel is VAT-exempt, then the true cost of making that trip by car is probably around £2-3, i.e. around 10% of doing it by rail.

I will answer here the points which you made, I hope Brad doesn't mind, but if you want to take the discussion further, then I suggest that we take it to a more appropriate forum, either private e-mail, or the uk.transport or uk.railway newsgroups.

I used to travel a lot by train, mainly local journeys, now I seldom do so, partly due to the cost. My journey to work is from Coulsdon to Croydon. This costs me 70p each way by bus, or 65p if I buy tickets in advance, in books of six. By train it would cost me exactly three times as much. I had a car for a few years, 1978-82, because mother insisted I had to have one, to drive her to various places. I absolutely hated driving, I think I did less than 2000 miles in all the time I had the car, including one journey of 300 miles, the only time I ever drove outside London. Car finally expired at about the same time as mother, so I stopped driving, and will never do so again. For short journeys, up to about 5km, I walk, unless I'm carrying something very heavy, or the weather is very bad. Longer than that, I go by bus. If there isn't a bus, I generally don't go.

There's nothing inherently wrong with old trains, see next paragraph.

quote:
The prospect of going right round the country in one of those semi-mobile cowsheds is about as attractive to me as being strapped in a chair and made to watch all 67 Nightmare on Elm Street films in succession (or however many there are). And the further you go the more of a ripoff they are: I'm off to visit a friend in Truro next weekend. It would have cost me £120 by train from York and taken nine hours. My Ryanair ticket from Stansted to Newquay cost me £38 return. Even after the costs of getting to and from each airport I anticipate having enough change for a very nice meal, not to mention the enormous time saving.

These railtours use refurbished BR Mk. 1 loco-hauled coaching stock. This was built between 1951 and 1963; that which is still in use would date from towards the end of this period, so it's about 40 years old, but is more comfortable than most of the later-built stock.

I agree with you that rail fares are, in most cases, too high. If you want to travel during peak hours, and/or turn up an go, they can be extremely expensive, even more so if you use Virgin trains, I have only used them twice since they won the franchise, and will not do so again.

My only recent experience of flying was in April, when I flew from London Gatwick to Newark International, mainly to see the Loew's Jersey Theater. (There, a film connection, to justify it being in this forum My last previous flight was in 1974, out to Leningrad, and back from Moscow. I think it is an absolutely ghastly way to travel, but since I can't afford to go over on the QE2, I ddnt have much choice. I did see the QE2 sailing out of New York harbour while I was there, looks a much better way to travel.

I had to check in two hours before take-off, go through several different security checks before I could get on the plane, had nothing to look at out of the window, could eat only when the meal was brought round, was far more restricted as to what I could take with me than I would be on a train, had to wait ages to reclaim my luggage at the other end, and the airports were miles away from my starting point and destination. At least I could get up to use the toilet if I needed to, in a car, bus, or many coaches, I couldn't. Most trains now do have toilets, and I can take a walk to stretch my legs, or go to the Buffet any time I like. On the plane, as soon as we hit any slightly turbulant air, they insist you sit down and put belts on. On older trains, you can even open the window to get some air.

The railtours have much lower fares, unless you choose to take the first class dining option. The trip which I described, to Carlisle and back, would typically cost less than an off-peak return to York. Many of these tours have various optional extras, e.g. I have got off at Appleby for a coach trip to places like Hawes, or Barnard Castle, which are very difficult to reach by other means, and re-joined the train at Darlington on the way back. Hawes is a strange place, they make Wensleydale cheese there, and everywhere you look you see Wallace and Grommet!

I choose not to drive, and I therefore have to accept the restrictions which this places on my freedom of mobility, there are many places that I would like to go, but it is just too difficult to get there; but what about the many people who for reasons of health, disability, age etc. cannot drive. How are they supposed to travel. In many places in this country public transport is terrible. The worst example I have seen was in a Devon bus timetable; there were places which were served by only one bus route, and that particular bus ran once a month! I'm not sure what you do if you run to catch the bus, and just miss it. Maybe the bus stops should have tents, instead of shelters! There were several routes which ran only once a week. In the unlikely event that you were to see one of these buses, I'm sure it would be empty, or very nearly so, such a service cannot be considered a serious option as a means of transport.

quote:
Rather than let morons like Livingstone persecute taxpaying motorists even more, what the government needs to do is close down all the railways and tarmac them over. That would solve traffic congestion.

What that would actually do is to stop the people who currently travel by train from doing so; They would either not travel at all, or they would travel by other means, mainly by road. In the case of lightly-used lines, this would make little difference, at least to the state of the roads, what difference it would make to the passengers would depend on the alternatives available. In the case of more heavily used lines, it would make the congestion worse. In some cases converting the ex railways into roads would not be possible, where it was, it would be expensive, in most cases, additional land would have to be purchased, bridges ann tunnels re-built to provide necessary clearances etc. Even where ths was done, the capacity of the new road would be less than the former railway which it replaced. How is that going to solve the congeston problem?

There were railways in this country which should never have been built, most of them have closed, in some cases as long ago as the early part of the 20th century. There are other lines which should have closed, and most have done so. There are few lines still open, which should now close. There are some lines which were closed, and should not have been. Many of these are the subject of pointless re-instatement proposals, which will never come to anything. Large amounts of time, money and effort are wasted on campaigns, studies, environmental assessments etc. for quite impossible re-opening schemes. I do not support schemes to re-open railways, with a very few exceptions, but nor do I beleive that more mass closures are the answer.


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Jon Miller
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 973
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 08-13-2002 07:48 PM      Profile for Jon Miller   Email Jon Miller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh !

Sharp eyes, Stephen! Unfortunately I must have had a brain fart when I made the copy, because my copy is missing the same pages (these two pages would have been one duplexed sheet). The projectionist who lent me the original passed away six years ago; his widow either donated it to an archive, gave it to another collector, or--egads--threw it out. Maybe a copy will show up on eBay someday...

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