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Author Topic: This Old House (I just bought.)
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-12-2002 10:16 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gas lines should NOT be used as the service electrical ground:
http://www.niagaramohawk.com/busind/pwrqual/basics/22_grnd.html

"Commonly accepted grounds, such as water pipes, should be checked to be sure they do not have PVC connections or feeds. Gas piping should not be used as a ground. Not only is it a violation of the National Electrical Code (NEC), but sparks during maintenance could be a considerable hazard."

However, the gas piping now needs to be bonded to the service:
This link is too long!!!

"250.104 (B) – This section reaffirms that gas piping that is installed in or attached to a building or structure must be bonded to the service at any of the specified locations. The bonding jumper is to be sized per 250.122."

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 08-12-2002 10:26 AM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think anyone rewiring would do well to use BX cable (flexible spiral
wound steel shielded) and tubular conduit in the basement and any exposed areas. BX shield itself serves for grounding all utility boxes, but modern BX 3-wire has a green wire within, so you're doubly grounded. AND protected when hanging a picture or shelf, if your nail penetrates plaster or wallboard.
The extra cost of safer wiring is of no great consequence, since the cost of a licensed electrician's labor is your main expenditure, and would comply with home insurance demands and your sense of inner peace.

EDIT: The framing carpenter seen here has hammered his last nail, and I deleted him in accord with Brad's policy that graphics should aid understanding of the content of the post.

An illustration of an electrician with his union button and license number visible on his cap as he installs BX and symetrically branching conduit cables in a breaker box, using a wire stripper and not his teeth, would be far more pertinent. Unfortunately, I don't have such a photo at hand.--Gerard


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-12-2002 11:36 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll second Gerard's suggestion to get a licensed electrician if you are uncertain of what you are doing. I wired the branch underground GFI-protected circuit to my pool pump myself. Everything was fine, EXCEPT that I ran UF cable in the PVC conduit, rather than the specified separate wires. So it FAILED inspection. Had to redo the work to pass inspection. At least it still works fine 15 years later.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 08-13-2002 05:20 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am a little leary of those real old houses...You never know how many bodies are buried in the basement or hid between the walls.

There is an old house in my home town of Manitowoc, Wisconsin when I was a punk kid in the early 50's. That particular old house had some "legends."

I heard recently that the old house still stands, and it still has a "reputation." Last year, I heard that the inside floor plan did not match the foot print of the house.

I remember my parents telling me not to go near that house when I was about 10 or 11 years old. It was only a couple of blocks away when I lived on 13th street.

Yet, after 52 years or so since I was aware of it, nobody apparently had the balls to find out what is between the inside floor plan and the house shell.

Spooky, huh? Maybe it was the home of the "Boogie Man."
*******************************************************
The Boogie Man by Barry M. Caceres

Dark... shadows dance around the closet door.
I pull the sheets up hight.
I must find a place to hide.
Dread... a cold draft drifts along the floor.
I know that he's inside.
I can't let out a cry.

Cold... the creature closes in; I can feel his claws.
I feel chills climb up my spine.
I fear that I will die.
Creep... he crawls beneath my bed, through cracks in the walls.
I try to hide my eyes.
I pray the fear subsides.

Sleep... the Sandman silences my inner screams.
I try to clear my sight.
I can't put up a fight.
Sigh... my pounding heart's subdued as I drift into dreams.
I fly inside my mind.
I will survive the night.

Bruce and Randy: Don't let the Boogie Man getcha!


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 08-13-2002 08:20 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don: Does the Japanese electrical system ground one side of their final distribution as a neutral? If not then maybe that's why they don't feel a need for a ground since there is no "hot" on a floating system.

Barry: Unless it's changed in recent years I think the typical large 240V appliance (range, clothes dryer) doesn't have a ground separate from neutral. The hard wired installation you had simply duplicated what a plug-pigtail & receptacle would have. Those were 3 prongs with 2 hots and a neutral.

Lets not get too carried away with grounding. At most outlets around the house it will not be used at all. Nice to have flexibility in where to plug in computers etc. that will make use of a ground but if there is difficulty and expense involved I'd rewire just where it's needed.

Sometimes things border on the ridiculous such as little AC-adaptor power supplies with polarized plugs (what for?) or devices with grounded 3-prong plugs where there is a plastic housing and nothing there to ground.


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Barry Floyd
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1079
From: Lebanon, Tennessee, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-13-2002 09:00 AM      Profile for Barry Floyd   Author's Homepage   Email Barry Floyd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The electrican ran a new 4 conductor cable from the breaker box to the kitchen and put this monster 4 prong receptacle on the wall behind the stove. Once he wired in the new 4 conductor pigtail to the stove... it works. It doesn't give us the shock it used to, and the pilot lights on the stove are now off completely.


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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-13-2002 10:34 AM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For most of the house I don't have any worries. I'm with you, Steve. 50% of the outlets in a house don't really need ground pins.

It's mainly in the kitchen when Melanie starts plugging in the microwave, Kitchen Aid mixer, toaster oven, coffee pot and what have you that things will get hairy.

I already told her to add up all the wattages of every appliance she's plugging in to the same circuit and divide by 100. If the answer is greater than 15 then I told her that she has to unplug something first. Yeah, I know the real divisor is 120 but it's a little white lie I told to provide a safety factor. When I get the chance to put in the correct wiring we'll make sure the circuits are split up enough to spread the current out. That way she can plug in all her gadgets and not have to worry.

She asked me what to do if she does pop a breaker. I told her to unplug everything, go down and flip the breaker back on and start plugging things in one by one... not plugging in that last thing before the breaker popped. Maybe, if she gets tired of having to do that all the time she'll be more likely to let me tear up her kitchen for a couple of days while I make things right.

She already had a hissy fit at me when I rewired the garbage disposal!

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 08-13-2002 11:05 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Reading this it would appear that domestic wiring here is a lot more straightforward than in the US.

We are all single phase, 240V. Even in days gone by when we had round pin plugs and sockets, those were three pin and so carried an earth and were polarized. Most domestic appliances are connected on a ring circuit, with each outlet rated at 13A. Bigger stuff, like cookers and showers will have it's own radial circuit, rated according to the needs of the appliance. Nowadays cable used is generally 'T&E' (twin and earth), in the past single cores were run in steel conduit buried in the walls, with the conduit being used as the earth conductor.

The only two pin outlets I've ever seen here are non-polarized, usually in bathrooms or bedrooms, fed via an isolating transformer for electric razors. It's illegal to have any other kind of outlet in a bathroom.

Don, Japan sounds like what was being described to me by a couple of guys who'd done a job in Thailan. Apparently there they have 110v and 220v supplies, using different connectors. Invariably the two voltages are often sourced from different phases, and the outlets are close together. The guys had racks with both 100v and 220v equipment in them, two supplies out of phase with each other so the potential phase to phase voltage worried them somewhat!

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David Favel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 764
From: Ashburton, New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 08-13-2002 08:35 PM      Profile for David Favel   Email David Favel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your wife knows wattage of appliances?

Cool. What every aspiring DIY guy needs.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-13-2002 10:22 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just about every appliance out today has a name plate on it somewhere that says either the max current or max wattage.

Paul;
Just found my first creaky, old house ghost.
I was upstairs fixing the bathroom drain when heard a thumping noise coming from downstairs. I swore it was somebody coming in the back door. Went down to see what it was and found nothing. The back door was locked. I double checked.

I've been in plenty of dark theatres late at night but sometimes your imagination has a way of running away with you. After a freaked-out 1/2 hour of wandering around the house I heard it coming from the basement.

So, are you ready to find out what it was?
It was the water heater boiling up. The temperature was turned all the way up.

Kind of a let down, isn't it?

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-14-2002 11:09 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My house has passed all inspections.

Randy, with the water heater cranked, I bet you had some great hot showers!

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-14-2002 12:19 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Before we bought the house we had it inspected. It was part of the mortgage agreement. The house passed with a little room to spare, even.

The only two things on the list that need attention are a couple of spots on the bathroom floors where the floor boards got water logged. They will need to be cut out and replaced. Then there are the bushes growing around the outside of the house. They are overgrown and will start to buckle the basement walls if not pulled out. My brother-in-law is a heavy equipment operator. We can call him to bring a tractor over and rip 'em out. He will only charge us for the hours on the meter plus some "beer money", if you knowwhatimean.

When that's done we will also have the yard graded to make sure the land slopes away from the house for better drainage. Mike (the B.I.L.) can do that all at the same time as he pulls the bushes. Shouldn't cost more than $100-$200 unless there's anything unforseen. <cross fingers>

Yeah! The water was hot! If the heater was "blooping" it would be just shy of boiling, wouldn't it? I turned it down to about half way. I think it's still too hot. Water temperature is one of those things that's best done by experimentation in small increments. I'll be watching it for a few days and making adjustments as needed.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-14-2002 12:28 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For residential use, many recommend the maximum safe hot water temperature to be 120F (50C), especially with children in the household:
http://www.americanwaterheater.com/proline/10things.asp
http://www.pgdb.co.nz/articles/jl96a.htm

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 08-14-2002 06:21 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I fully agree with the 120 degree limit if there are children in the house...

I have been often told that a house with an electric dishwasher should be run at 140-145 degrees F. Seems that this helps the detergent dissolve better.

No kids in this house. We got the dishwasher. 140 it is.

I now return us all to PBS and "This Old House."

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 08-14-2002 06:32 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Randy, if those bushes you're going to rip out are really large or deep-rooted, you might want to check on underground utility locations first. If the roots are wrapped around a buried pipe or something, you could run into trouble.

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