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Author Topic: Digitally filmed
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-13-2002 06:53 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In my awesome super phiggidy phat home theater sound system, I have always set each speaker to "large". Granted, they are all floorstanding speakers, but they can reproduce kick ass bass. I think you get more bang for the buck if you have more speakers producing bass instead of just the sub. When the sounds of the main and surround channels are sent to the sub, it just sounds wrong. Setting the levels on the receiver properly (sub approximately 10db higher than the mains) results in super boomy sound with the speakers set to "small". So you have to turn the sub down. Then you don't get the full effect of the discrete sub when the audio calls for it.


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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 11-13-2002 07:08 PM      Profile for Per Hauberg   Author's Homepage   Email Per Hauberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What about: "Made for Television"

By the way: I attended my first digital projection demo last week in Lübeck, Germany - hosted by Kinoton.

A new swedish youth-thiller "The invisible" filmed digitally and projected with a Barco projector with Kinoton console and lamp.

We were told, that the film was for one reason or another, delivered not on discs, but on tape, which should be the excuse for lack of contrast - but sharpness on this about 12 meter wide screen (Scope) was nothing less than impressing ! The show started with a short, -filmed digitally, but shown on 35mm - absolutely unusable.
I'll wait for the next chapter (on discs) before judging. Sharpness was promising, but the depth and contrast, together with the projector priced about ten times a traditional one, gives me the hope, that I can retire, before the future takes over !

p.

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 11-13-2002 07:13 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
We were told, that the film was for one reason or another, delivered not on discs, but on tape

Do you know if it was 'digital tape' or if it was something like SVHS or Beta hooked to one of the analog video in's?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-13-2002 08:40 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the image data was digital, whether it was stored on D-5 HD tape or DVDs should NOT have affected image contrast.

IMHO, current digital projectors still fall short of optimum contrast and black level. You can easily cast a distinct shadow in the projection beam of what should be a totally black area of a digitally projected image. Those with digital projectors should try casting a shadow in the beam while projecting black, (or a night scene or space movie) and you'll see what I mean. In contrast (pun intended ), KODAK VISION Premier Color Print Film can attain a density range of well over 4.0, or more than a 10,000:1 contrast range on the print itself. Even with normal lens/port flare and stray light, the black level is much darker, especially for really dark or black scenes.

For example, look at the thread reviewing "Minority Report" printed on KODAK VISION Premier film ( here ), where Aaron Haney wrote:

"...the print that I saw had amazing contrast. There was a "feature presentation" snipe which ended with a fade to black just before the actual movie started. When the cut to the real movie happened, I couldn't believe just how much darker the screen suddenly became. That continued throughout the whole movie. Very deep blacks. I appreciated that."

And David Stambaugh wrote: "The print I saw today was exactly as Aaron describes. When the black leader of the feature started, it was nearly pitch black dark in the theater -- I actually thought the xenon had blown or something, the screen was so dark. Well, the entire movie was like that - incredible contrast, and very deep, rich blacks. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this before. And no, the screen is not under-lit. There was PLENTY of brightness (focus seemed perfect, and the image was steady too)."

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here Kodak Website


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-14-2002 01:04 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If the image data was digital, whether it was on tape or DVDs should NOT have affected image contrast.

Depending on what codec was used it sure can. Did it use the standard HDTV codec (which kicks DLP's ass), or did they use, oh say, DV? Maybe they used Realvideo? It's all digital.

And yes, I know your point was "1001001" looks like "1001001" no matter how it is stored.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-14-2002 08:41 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why is it that video technology (including both NTSC television and DLP projection) seems to be incapable of producing true "black"? It always comes out as a very dark grey (supposedly the newer DLP projectors are better, though). It's not a "digital" or "analog" limitation, since it's a problem with all formats.

Film can have this problem, too, but it usually seems to be an issue with poor lab work (cough...Deluxe Hollywood...cough). A good dye-transfer Technicolor or Vision Premiere print doesn't have this problem.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-14-2002 09:30 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott wrote: "Film can have this problem, too, but it usually seems to be an issue with poor lab work".

It's usually NOT the lab's fault when you have prints that have "milky" blacks. Most labs maintain very good control of their process sensitometry, and follow the Kodak Laboratory Aim Density (LAD) method to assure proper curve placement when printing:

here Kodak Processing Specifications
here Laboratory Aim Density (LAD)

Underexposure in the original photography is a primary cause of "milky" blacks and increased graininess. An underexposed lower density negative requires a lower printer light setting, reducing the "d-max" achieved in the prints. If you have an adjustable 35mm camera, shoot an exposure series from -3 to +3 camera stops and get paper prints --- you will see that as the film is underexposed, the blacks on the prints get lighter, and the grain becomes more visible:
here Film Characteristics
here Sensitometric Information and Exposure

Another reason for milky blacks is that the distributor may have specified another manufacturer's print film having lower contrast than KODAK VISION Color Print film.

Proprietary "silver retention" processes can be used to futher increase the contrast and black level in prints:
here Processing Techniques
here Emulsion Manipulation
here Soup du Jour

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here Kodak Website


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