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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Copyright violation & the financial damage it can do (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Copyright violation & the financial damage it can do
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-21-2003 02:37 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I feel that if someone takes a picture of me and my wife (if I had one) as a wedding photo, I could pretty much do what I want with it (if there were no contract). Why? Because I'm the damn person in the photo! If I didn't sign a contract saying otherwise, then there is no way that the photographer owns my likeness. I do. I would probably have the photographer/studio print up many prints anyway simply because they can do a better job than I can, but I can do whatever I want with pictures of me. Pics of other people and things? Entirely different story. And no, I am not insinuating that simply because I am a small speck in a huge crowd that I own the picture content. I just own my likeness. Like it has been said before, if you make it extremely clear in the contract, then you don't have anything to worry about.

Copying DVDs and movies is copying intellectual property. I am not intellectual property (I can see the jokes coming now).

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 04-21-2003 03:59 AM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe,

The Professional Photographers of America used to circulate a brochure about how the copyright laws of the United States protects photographers and other artists. In the brochure's heading was this slogan "IF IT WAS CREATED, IT'S COPYRIGHTED". The rule is very simple. You can do whatever you want with your pictures but you do not have the right to reproduce the photograph without the permission of the photographer who took the pictures even without a signed contract agreement between the photographer and the client. I am not making this up. Any attorney who is well versed in the copyright laws of the United States will tell you that I am correct. This law appplies to intellectual and non intellectual property like yourself so I guess you are included. Sorry [Big Grin]

-Claude

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-21-2003 04:29 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Any chance you could get a copy of that brochure on the internet or a paper copy? It would be an interesting read for those of us without specific knowledge in this area.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 04-21-2003 05:12 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hugh writes:

quote:
I understood that the copyright of a photograph belonged to the author
As I understand it, agreed...

quote:
i.e the person who took the photograph, and not the subject of the picture.
That is not, in all cases, the definition given in UK copyright law. Section 9 states:

quote:
11.—(1) The author of a work is the first owner of any copyright in it, subject to the following provisions.

(2) Where a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work is made by an employee in the course of his employment, his employer is the first owner of any copyright in the work subject to any agreement to the contrary.

Like pretty much everything in UK law, there is plenty of scope for ambiguity here, viz the definition of 'an employee in the course of his employment.' But according to Kamina's book, the way this has worked out in precedent is to establish the principle that, unless an agreement or contract explicitly states otherwise, the first owner of copyright is the person or company who financed the production. So if you're paid by someone else to take pictures of their wedding, then unless a contract states that the photographer retains copyright, the first owner of copyright is the customer.

quote:
Any professional photographer who sells his negatives is a rare person as he would be losing revenue on reprints. Remember that reprints are a very important source of income for a wedding & portrait photograph
They were, in the days when your average individual had neither the technology nor the expertise to produce reasonable quality copies. I can't help thinking that this particular cat is probably out of the bag by now, and that rather than fight expensive and time-consuming legal battles, maybe it would be more productive for photographers to amend their pricing structures in order to reflect the fact that images produced to commisssion are likely to be copied by their customers.

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Hugh McCullough
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Old Coulsdon, Surrey, UK
Registered: Jan 2003


 - posted 04-21-2003 08:51 AM      Profile for Hugh McCullough   Author's Homepage   Email Hugh McCullough   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Leo.
I have placed a guide to UK Copyright Law on my website www.cinephoto.info
I have put it there as I have no wish to block this thread up with information that is of limited use to anybody outside the UK.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-21-2003 10:00 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Claude,

Well Put!!
I hope our friend in India read this....

Mark

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 04-21-2003 11:15 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some general information quoted from the Professional Photographers of America:

What Can You Do To Protect Your Copyrights?

The photographer is the first line of defense in copyright protection. PPA advises and encourages members to:

  • Mark the back of your prints as copyrighted. This is not required by law (your images are protected from the moment of creation), however it is a wise step.
  • Let your customers know how to contact you - PPA Members may use their Member ID number and PPA's 800 number. We regularly help consumers find the creator of an image.
  • Educate and inform your customers that images are protected by Federal Copyright Law.
  • Use the "Copyright Statement," included as a reproducible slick in every PPA Membership Kit. This can be posted in your studio and a copy inserted into each print order.
  • Include a statement about copyright in your contract or other sales agreements.
  • Consider including a statement that your client acknowledges that photographs are protected by copyright and that the customer agrees that reprints will only be ordered from the original photographer or with the photographer's permission. Infringements can then be dealt with as a contract violation, not just as a Federal Copyright case.
Note: Make sure that a local attorney reviews your contracts. Contract law varies from state to state.
If your work has been copied and your copyrights infringed upon, contact PPA. Be prepared to give us specific information concerning the case. This is a PPA Member-Only service.

At the local level, you may want to express your concerns to store managers and inform them about copyright requirements. We suggest that this be done as a "we think you should know" type of visit to avoid possible confrontation. You can also contact your local Chamber of Commerce, Better Business Bureau, etc., with an emphasis on education, and arrange for news releases to be used in your local papers alerting consumers to copyright law.

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James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 04-21-2003 11:50 AM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I noticed that most of these posts happened on 4/20.
You guys are some angry stoners! [Big Grin]

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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 04-21-2003 11:57 AM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I sure had a Happy 4/20! I celebrated the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ rather than worrying about who really owns what of mine.

Happy Easter, everyone! [Smile]

=TMP=

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 04-21-2003 12:24 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David,

Why did I not think about doing what you did by providing a link to the Professional Photographers of America's website on copyright. Thank you very much for doing that.

I now feel that I may have overreacted to Phil's comments. I did it only because I love my profession and was only defending it when we were refered to as "Every Joe Blow that takes a Pic or something". "EVERY" was the word used in the post that had offended me because I interpreted as every photographer who takes picture because it includes many of my skilled colleagues and myself. If Phil had said "Some Joe Blows" in his post, I would not have become upset because there are indeed a lot of "joe Blow's" in our industry just like there are a lot of"Joe Blow's in the motion picture exhibition industry who have no problem doing film wrong and work for a theatre chain owned by a guy named "Joe Blow".

Thomas,

You are very correct. In my rage, I forgot it was Easter and should have waited until today to reply to Phils comments. I am sorry for forgetting it was the anniversary of our Lords resurrection. I hope you had a nice Easter. [Smile]

-Claude

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 04-21-2003 12:46 PM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just some thoughts...

One would think, human nature being what it is, that with the oneset of high quality cheap consumer scanners and photo printers, a business model based upon selling multiple copies of a picture regardless of the law will eventually become unprofitable.

One would also think, based upon life experience, that the majority of the public think that when they hire a photographer, they are hiring a cameraman to produce a product that they own all rights to, unless they clearly understand up front that they do not. Many people, under those circumstances, will take their business elsewhere, which is why some (not all) photographers bury the copyright in small print in their contracts.

One also has to know that most people believe it is their right to own the commercial use of their image, regardless of the law. This is why smart photographers get written releases from everyone they photograph, especially in a private setting like a banquet hall.

One may wish that things were different, but that is the way things are.

/Mitchell

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 04-21-2003 01:17 PM      Profile for Claude S. Ayakawa   Author's Homepage   Email Claude S. Ayakawa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell,

As I had mentioned earlier, I do insert a little printed note that informs my clients that my photographs are protected by federal copyright. The only time when signed contracts are necessary is when most photographers book weddings. The contracts list in detail the servicees that will be provided on a set date and list the church, the time as well as the site of the reception. Most important, it covers the total financial costs and the deposit required. The contract also mentions copyright.
Getting every portrait customer to sign a copyright agreement before a photo session is never done in our industry. To do so is like the movie studios asking video store owners to get customers to sign a agreement not to copy a movie after he or she buys the DVD or video tape. Like the DVDs and tapes, my proofs have (C) Claude's Photographed embossed on the lower right hand corner and customers are informed in the printed note that my images are protected by fedearl copyright.

-Claude

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-21-2003 02:58 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
For clarification:

"Every Joe Blow..." was NOT a reference to any professionals or anyone in particular.

It is usually used as another name for "John Q. Public".

>>> Phil

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 04-21-2003 03:01 PM      Profile for Mitchell Dvoskin   Email Mitchell Dvoskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
customers are informed in the printed note that my images are protected by federal copyright.

I suppose the question that comes to mind is, do you specifically tell the customers that they are not buying the copyright, just a print, and if so, how do they react? I know this may sound redundant, but it is never safe to assume.

You, as a professional, understand what you are selling. I'm not so sure the general public does, unless you explicitly state it. I'm also not sure the general public understands the implications of not owning the copyright. In addition to the obvious loss of the right to lawfully reproduce it, they also may lose the ability to legally display the photo publicly, or to prevent the photographer from using their image commercially.

/Mitchell

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-21-2003 03:58 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It doesn't matter whether a photo was taken by John Q. Public in front of Wal-Mart or Ansel Adams at Yosemete. ALL photography is technically covered by copyright law. It doesn't matter if the picture is some little digital camera snapshot or an 8 X 10 view camera chrome.

Joe R. raised an excellent point about the people in the photos. Sure, a photographer may have the copyright of his photos. But unless he gets a SIGNED RELEASE from the talent in the photo, he will be liable for damages by using their likeness without permission. That's another reason to get things in writing.

As to court battles and who won and so forth, their is a lot of unfair BULLSHIT happening with regard to intellectual property. Some fellows with deep pockets will steal like thieving bastards and count on having a bigger legal war chest to fend off challenges from John Q. Public. This is a cornerstone of how Hollywood does business. May the people who steal die painfully of brain cancer.

To leave things to trust or verbal agreements is foolhardy. In creative business the phrase "trust me" translates to "fuck you." It doesn't matter if it is movies, book publishing, art or whatever.

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