|
|
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
|
|
Author
|
Topic: I Think Something Is Wrong With Our Schools
|
|
|
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 09-10-2003 01:14 AM
Jeeze, Peter....I thought Mount Vernon High School was bad. Skidrow Wooly (Sedro Woolley) is by far the worst in Skagit County.
Only 40% of the 10th graders at MVHS can pass the reading tests, where as at the State Street High School in Sedro Woolley it is only 27%.
Math for MVHS is 26%, and in State Street High School is only 8%.
MVHS has a graduation rate of 81.6%, compared to a state average of 78.3%. The drop-out rate is 8.3%.
Now here is something that will make you puke:
The State Street High School in Sedro Woolley has a graduation rate of only 16.5%, compared to a state average of 78.3%. The dropout rate at State Street High School is 50.3%, compared to a statewide average of 5.0%.
Just wonderful.....
7 miles away form the State Street High School in Sedro Woolley is the Sedro Woolley High school. Much much better. Sedro Woolley High School has a graduation rate of 92.4%, compared to a state average of 78.3%. The dropout rate at this school is 3.6%, compared to a statewide average of 5.0%.
51% can read meet or exceed state averages in reading and 36% can perform math that will meet or exceed state averages.
...........................................
I did a research on Josh's high school in West Fargo, North Dakota. Theirs is based on the national average of 50%. Looks like a very good school to go to. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Language/Arts: 67%
Math: 69%
Reading: 65%
.........................
I checked mine in Manitowoc, Wisconsin. (State Average)
Language/arts - 69%.
Math - 46%
Reading - 65%
20 students per teacher.
It was a very good school to attend when I was a teen-ager. We learned something. We were very proud of our teachers, administrators, and our school.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aaron Garman
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1470
From: Toledo, OH USA
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 09-10-2003 02:06 AM
You all are right: are schools and education system in general is falling apart. I graduated from a private school in 2000, but even then I could see where things were going. Not only were students just out of control, but the teachers just didn't know what they were doing. Luckily, many veteran teachers were still there and knew how to teach and control a class. Unfortunately, some of those teachers are nearing retirement.
In Indiana, high school students need to also pass an exam to graduate. I found it sad that several students had a tough time passing. It was part of our standardized ISTEP test, and I found it pretty simple. I just couldn't believe so many had such a hard time.
This problem is not just the schools' fault however, but also the parents. Parents have become apathetic to the lives of their children. Goodness, just turn on TV early in the morning or in the afternoon and see the shows on. All these "out of control kids" or "my daughter is pregnant at 14" specials are just absurd. Why does stuff like this happen? Where are the parents.
Bottom line, teachers, administrators, and parents need to grow some backbone and show these kids who the boss is (no, not Tony Danza)! And of course, we need to elect good politicians to represent us in government. Heck, we just all need to VOTE in general. I find it hilarious my friends will talk bad about politicians and why things suck. However, I ask if they vote and they say, "No." For God's sake, VOTE!!!!
We're too busy watching American Idol, fighting some "war", and making fun of Bennifer! Instead, read the news, vote for good candidates, and care about the lives of our children. Heck, just start caring again. A thread on this topic is terrific because it shows just how much some of us still care.
AJG
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gracia L. Babbidge
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 709
From: Bowdoin, Maine
Registered: Aug 2000
|
posted 09-10-2003 10:29 AM
This morning, after getting my little brother on the bus to go to kindergarten (yes, huge age gap there), I was perusing one of yesterday's local newspapers. Apparently the state of Maine has one of the lowest percentages in the nation of high school seniors that attend college after graduation. National percentage was indicated to be 68%, state of Maine's listed as 55%.
A statistic that wasn't mentioned that I'm mildly curious about, is of that remaining 45% that don't bother with college - how many of them attended one of the regional vocational schools as part of their high school education? At my former high school (Mt. Ararat in Topsham), the trend was if you didn't intend to go to college, you spent half the day at 'Voc 10'. Interestingly enough, most of the students that took that option were male. The most popular classes offered there were ones dealing with automotive repair and restoration.
Some of the industries in Maine that employ large chunks of the population are ones that don't necessarily require anything above a junior high school level education, i.e. lumber/forrestry/paper production, fishing ('lobstering' in particular), potato farming - in essence a whole lot of serious manual labor. A lot of people native to the state grow up knowing they will really have to work to earn a living.
It's those people 'from away' that I wonder about! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ 09-10-2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Gracia L. Babbidge ]
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 09-10-2003 05:59 PM
quote:
Popular culture is just presenting all types & cashing in on the type to which the population responds
Well, yes and no. Our "culture" or mass media just takes the path of least resistance (the cheapest, easiest to develop path) in coming up with "programming material." They just amp up the sex and violence quotient.
American mass media presents things in a much different way than the rest of the world. Our media does a lot of fear-mongering. This is one very good point made in the "Bowling for Columbine" documentary as one of the items contributing to gun violence in America. The news-infotainment media loves to short-stroke negative stories to make people scared about everything. Advertising, movies, music and fashion all tell people they must live up to unattainable standards otherwise they won't have as many friends or be attractive to the opposite sex. I've been to Canada and lived in Japan, so I know Michael Moore is correct on this point. Our mass media does a lot of irresponsible indoctrination of the American public.
quote:
The interesting question is what made males *think* that burly was more attractive. The likelihood is that they of course had no benchmark themselves, & were using the criteria of THEIR OWN RESPONSES to body types. The response was usually that of intimidation by larger males, & they assumed that the males *they* were intimdated by were more attractive to the opposite sex.
Our media dictates to us what is attractive. And it is built on who they make into heroes. Americans typically have to have winners and losers in just about every part of our lives. It is a somewhat unique aspect of our culture.
It is an American pasttime to place certain people high on pedestals. We have our billionaire athletes, sexy supermodels, movie stars, rock stars, corporate tycoons --we make heros out of them all. Our culture teaches us to ignore others who don't measure up to these ideals. And then we have to have others to treat like shit. I'm pretty sure words like geek, nerd, wimp, four-eyes, etc. are all American inventions. Many kids grow up knowing they'll never snag that carrot on a stick the media holds in front of all of us. Without proper grounding, they lose their way and lose hope. And then that's when you get all the bad grades, teenage crime and other terrible shit happening. Oh, of course, you have that bully factor too. Since there always has to be a "winner" somewhere, the tough kids in school usually take some perverse joy in humiliating and beating the shit out of the not-so-tough.
For those who are "disenfranchised" like the inner-city poor, well we really treat them like shit and blame just about all of our society's problems on them. If we took a step back and really looked at things carefully, the public might realize they lose much more to white collar crime than any of the violence stuff shown on the average TV newscast. Instead of buying an ADT alarm system for your house, there ought to be alarms on your checkbook for the businessmen looking to rob you blind. Renew any health insurance premiums lately?
"COPS" is a popular show. Michael Moore made the case the media doesn't know how to sell a "Corporate Cops" show. I don't think that's true. The media lives and dies by advertising dollars. They're not going to make shows about the crooks who pay their ad bills! In other words, the media won't bite the hand that feeds it.
The American public has its collective head up its ass. But to be positive about it, this is a problem we can change. One of the fundamental steps we have to take is having more compassion for other people.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 09-17-2003 11:51 PM
HAH! I just read a Manhattan Institute study which was commissioned by Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.
Indeed, Washington State schools are producing students dumber than a box of rocks. The graduation rate for public school students in Washington State ranks 39th amoung the 50 states.
According to the study released today by the Manhattan Institute, 66 percent of Washington students who entered high school as freshmen in the class of 2001 earned a high school diploma within the traditional four-year period. The nationwide rate was 70 percent.
The state with the highest graduation rate was North Dakota, with 89 percent. The lowest was Florida, with 56 percent.
Rates were highest in the Midwest (77 percent), followed by the Northeast (73 percent), the West (69 percent) and the South (65 percent).
As I stated before, something is wrong with out public schools up here. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
According to the report, The institute also calculated the "college readiness" of the graduates by factoring in high school courses completed and scores on a national reading test. Nationwide, 32 percent of students in the class of 2001 left high school qualified to attend a four-year college, the institute said; in Washington State, the rate was 24 percent.
At least, we are not the dumbest. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Here is a list by states (in aphabetical order)
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo_t1.htm
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
|
posted 09-18-2003 02:07 PM
First of all, don't trust those graduation rates. To boost their rates, many school systems force poor students out of the schools, then don't count those students when they calculate their rates. Or, they made grading so easy that everyone graduates.
quote:
I maintain it is not always the parents. People point their fingers too much and blame others instead of themselves.
That's exactly what many parents do. They think sending kids to school is like putting gas in a car. They think they don't need to do any preparation, don't need to monitor whether their kids are doing homework and don't teach their kids to respect their teachers. Instead, when their kids fail, they blame the schools.
In addition, the schools are now expected to be the parents to the child. Schools are expected to provide breakfasts, after-school care, medical services, social services, etc.
I've taught in high school and while I loved teaching, only 10% of the kids were willing do any real work.
You cannot teach kids that have no interest in learning.
I live near a public high school and when the kids come off the subway to attend the school, they're rarely carrying any books. When I was in high school, we carried more books than we could manage. I've spoken to high school teachers who don't even bother assigning homework anymore, because the kids simply don't do it.
And you can't compare catholic or other religious schools with public schools. Private schools get kids whose parents are interested enough to pay for their education and get the chance to reject any kids they don't want. They also have a lot more freedom when it comes to enforcing discipline.
I'm not saying that schools don't share in the blame -- certainly many school systems are very poorly run. But I don't know why we expect quality teachers when teachers generally make less than almost any other professional group. In many cities, trash collectors make more than the teachers do.
The strange part of all this is that we live in a time when everyone desires to have an incredible amount of consumer goods, great success and be very wealthy. One would think that for most people, the only way to achieve that goal would be via a decent education. It's not like we're living in a time when everyone wants to be a hippie, live in the country and make crafts for a living.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 09-18-2003 03:59 PM
Martin, I think those figures I posted are not too far off the mark. The link I posted points out what ethnic groups that are also having trouble.
If everyone points their finger at the parents, can you explain to me why certain areas have much lower stats? Surely, all parents cannot be "rottin' and unconcerned" in those areas.
As a graduate form a high school in the mid-west, I see a big difference in academic standards as compared to where I am now.
For the most part, I don't think it is the parent's fault. There are millions of kids that are concerned about the quality of the education they receive in all parts of the country.
I still think public schools are a joke. By the looks of things, so do the parents. The same kids from the same block of the same city excel in the academic field in private schools much better than their counterparts in public schools.
Traditionally for many years the kids in the mid-west have always had a better scholastic standing than those in other parts of the country for the most part.
Up here some schools do much better - even if they are 5 miles apart from one another. Same brats - different city. But they go to the same shopping mall, probably live in the nice parts of the city, go to the same movies at the same theatre and do the same things normal kids do - together. Their parents may even work together in a business somewhere.
As I mentioned before, many parents think the public schools are a big joke, but yet they can't do anything about it. Those parents simply do not have the funds to send there kids to a private school. Those who can afford it do just that...and the rewards are ten-folded.
I agree - there are also thousands of mis-guided kids. That will always be and will never change. It only takes one rottin' apple to spoil the whole bushel. In this case, 20% of the brats and their rottin' parents out there make it look bad for the 80% of good kids and parents that are interested in a good school that provides a good education.
There are public schools in my area and other parts of the country that flatly not capable to provide a good education. The public schools have incompetent teachers, and those theachers should be removed.
Washington State wanted to mandate teacher testing. However, the WEA union howled like a dog barking at the moon and got that idea thrown out. I guess they must be afraid they will be "exposed" as being not qualified to do their job.
And there is no end in sight for the teacher's strike in Marysville. The kids are getting very concerned and want the strike over because they know that the strike is hurting them. So do the parents.
Here is a link for a website that was bannned in schools around the Seattle area. The school administration came up with a half-assed idea that it "links kids to a porno site". B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T!
It is just another feeble excuse to block students for posting an honest rating of their teachers. Some students praise some of their teachers to the sky. Some get slammed. The school board probably feels a little edgy about that because some of their names will "come up" in a negative fashion. They don't want that to be known because an invertigation of their credentials might result in their standing in an unemployment line - and that is what some teachers and administration officials should be doing.
http://www.ratemyteacher.com/index.jsp
| IP: Logged
|
|
Roger Katz
Film Handler
Posts: 61
From: Thomaston, CT, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
|
posted 09-18-2003 07:10 PM
quote:
Martin, I think those figures I posted are not too far off the mark.
Those graduation figures are as close to correct as we will get. Most states claim they graduate about 95% of students. This study attempted to find the true graduation rate, which the states will never claim because nobody benefits from knowing how many students are really dropping out.
quote:
If everyone points their finger at the parents, can you explain to me why certain areas have much lower stats? Surely, all parents cannot be "rottin' and unconcerned" in those areas.
Yes, they can, or at least 3/4 of them are. Two examples from the past two days alone. I got to school 45 minutes early yesterday and found one fourth grade student standing alone by the door (the building wasn't even open yet but mom still left him there) eating his breakfast - a bag of Doritos. Today I reminded a parent who was picking up her third grade child to make sure he goes to bed at a decent time and eats a breakfast. She said that he goes to bed really late. I asked what time he goes to bed and she replied, "I don't know. He's still up when I go to bed at 9:00."
These are far from atypical. These are the norm that we deal with daily and of course there are much worse examples (e.g. the first grader at our school a couple years ago who came to school wearing pajamas and reeking of gasoline, or the fourth grader last year who stabbed someone and set fires while his mom was passed out drunk on the couch.)
quote:
For the most part, I don't think it is the parent's fault.
Studies the quality of a teacher influences nine percent of how well a child does in school. Most of the remaining 91% is home life and when there are many parents who refuse to feed their children, interact with them, or even make sure they are in the house rather than hanging out in abandoned buildings with junkies at midnight (at the age of 7) the kids cannot do well no matter what the school does.
quote:
I still think public schools are a joke. By the looks of things, so do the parents. The same kids from the same block of the same city excel in the academic field in private schools much better than their counterparts in public schools.
That is because kids who go to private schools have parents who care as evidenced by the fact that they take the time and money to send their kids to a school of their choice. Many parents, however, do not know the name of their child's teacher (despite the teacher's best efforts). Of course it does not help when there is no phone number supplied for the teacher to call to get in touch with the parent making communication impossible since many parents do not check their child's backpack for notes from school. Heck, we had one parent show up for 5th grade graduation last year at our school only to discover that their child doesn't even go to our school.
quote:
As I mentioned before, many parents think the public schools are a big joke, but yet they can't do anything about it.
These are the parents who come in raving that we cannot discipline their "little perfect angel" in any way because it damages the child's self-esteem. And god forbid we actually want the child to do their work and earn a passing grade on a test.
quote:
I agree - there are also thousands of mis-guided kids. That will always be and will never change. It only takes one rottin' apple to spoil the whole bushel. In this case, 20% of the brats and their rottin' parents out there make it look bad for the 80% of good kids and parents that are interested in a good school that provides a good education.
Sadly, in most cases it is the other way around. 80% brats and 20% good kids.
quote:
There are public schools in my area and other parts of the country that flatly not capable to provide a good education. The public schools have incompetent teachers, and those theachers should be removed.
These schools are incapable because of the quality of the students not the quality of the teachers. As an analogy, no matter how good the Tampa Bay Devil Rays manager is, they will still finish last because their players suck. Many schools, no matter how good their teachers are, will be near the bottom in test scores because their students just do not have the ability to achieve academically.
I could sit here all day and type out stories like the few mentioned above. Schools cannot help that close to 100% of kids in many systems are being raised by single parents (many of whom are unemployed or have substance abuse problems. Schools cannot help that many parents think nothing of the fact that there children miss 20 or more days per school year (one of my students has already been absent 11 of the 16 days this year for no apparent reason). However, when the state finally steps in (usually a couple of years too late) and puts the child in a foster home or a safe house it is amazing how quickly the child can turn around both academically and behaviorally.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 09-19-2003 01:00 AM
I don't trust any of those graduation rate statistics. Some may be close to the truth, but others may be way off the mark on the plus or minus.
I recall one of the big cities in Texas (it might have been Houston) falsifying its dropout rates to get extra funds and make some politicians look good. They just did some fancy bookkeeping to cover the fact a far greater percentage of inner city kids were dropping out of school.
Regarding the low graduation rate in Florida, that makes perfect sense. No state income tax, and you have a very large retired population. Some seniors make a positive contribution to their community and get involved. But many only get politically involved to not pay for shit.
That's exactly how it is here in Lawton. Large retired military population who won't pay dick for anything. Even the former Ft. Sill post commanding general, Lee Baxter, pointed out this fact. If you want improvements in infrastructure, education, business development, etc. you have to be willing to pull out your wallet and pay for it some way. The only thing many retired military folks around here do is find ways on how not to pay any taxes. Many own their own businesses, live in large homes, have workforces of minimum wage employees (with no benefits either). But they'll sure bitch about how bad things are and how terrible Lawton is becoming. When asked what they're going to do about it, they'll just respond, "we need to throw more of those dope smoking kids in jail." Yeah, that'll get the job done. This area of Oklahoma has teachers leaving right and left (if they are not getting their jobs cut from the current budget crisis). It is actually a miracle we have as many kids as we do graduating. Enrollment at Cameron University is actually on a heathly upswing.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
|
posted 09-19-2003 03:37 PM
quote:
As a graduate form a high school in the mid-west, I see a big difference in academic standards as compared to where I am now.
That's a completely unfair comparison. You're comparing one place 30 years ago (more?) with another place today. Believe me, academic standards have dropped in the mid-west as well.
In NYC, there are three highly-competitive public special high schools: Stuyvesant High School, Bronx High School of Science and Brooklyn Technical High School. Even in those places, academic standards have generally dropped considerably over the years.
But why is that? It's because our kids spend most of their time watching TV and playing videogames instead of reading and they consume tons of sugar. So they're hyperactive and don't have patience for study and reading. Everything in our society is geared towards instant gratification.
This is true throughout society. Compare an issue of Rolling Stone in 1968 with one now or an issue of Playboy from the 1970s with one of the new men's magazines. Both Rolling Stone and the new men's magazine have become nothing but pictures and captions. Both RS and Playboy used to be quite literate magazines. Playboy published every major American writer for 30 years. Rolling Stone used to do true investigative journalism in 50,000 word articles. You'll see none of that today.
In addition, it's impossible to enforce academic standards in a high school when the kids are coming from junior high school unprepared. And so on down the grade levels. How can you successfully teach Algebra if the kids don't understand arithmetic. How can you teach The Odyssey if the kids can barely read. The answer is, you can't. It's a great big joke. And if a kid isn't reading well by third grade, it's unlikely that kid will ever learn to read well enough to do true academic work.
quote:
For the most part, I don't think it is the parent's fault. There are millions of kids that are concerned about the quality of the education they receive in all parts of the country.
I big to differ. Frankly, I think most people are completely unqualified to have kids. Even in my own family, I can visit a particular relative with young kids and there are no books of consequence in the house. But there are plenty of videogames and a big-screen TV. These aren't bad people -- they love their kids and spend lots of time with them. But they're not training their kids to be prepared for an information based society. In some cases, it's because parents lead such difficult lives that they don't want the added pressure of having to say "no" to their kids. They want to be the kids friend.
People take their kids to Disney World and think that's culture. Sports are all-important, but intellect isn't.
quote:
I still think public schools are a joke. By the looks of things, so do the parents. The same kids from the same block of the same city excel in the academic field in private schools much better than their counterparts in public schools.
While private schools don't necessarily pay teachers more than public schools, they tend to get more qualified teachers, because it's a much easier work environment, as well as parents who care and therefore, more qualified students. They also have much lower teacher-to-student ratios.
Some cities have hired the Edison Corporation to take over some of their schools. These essentially operate like private schools, except anyone can go. At least so far, Edison has not been able to demonstrate true academic improvement by its students.
quote:
Traditionally for many years the kids in the mid-west have always had a better scholastic standing than those in other parts of the country for the most part.
And why is that? I bet it's because there are fewer recent immigrants, fewer poor people, fewer minorities and higher student-to-teacher ratios.
quote:
Up here some schools do much better - even if they are 5 miles apart from one another. Same brats - different city. But they go to the same shopping mall, probably live in the nice parts of the city, go to the same movies at the same theatre and do the same things normal kids do - together. Their parents may even work together in a business somewhere.
I think further investigation would show that there are substantial differences in the makeup of that student body. If not, then someone needs to figure out what the better school is doing right.
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
|
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
|
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2
The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion
and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.
|
Home
![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic