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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Author
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Topic: Staten Island ferry accident.
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-18-2003 12:16 AM
Paul...
We had a class that had some kind of hotshot fly-by-wire software-controlled propulsion system (Siemens?)... seems I recall it had variable pitch props, too... though maybe I'm mixing systems. Weren't the 2 G.E. engines converted from locomotive service? It may have also been one of the first pilot-controlled systems, using some kind of magnetic or pneumatic clutching system on the shafts... refresh me where I'm off on detail here.
Anyway... this was the system that accounted for most of the dock collisions after the mid-'80s... in the process of idling down & putting the front shaft "in gear", something would go haywire in the software and nothing would happen, resulting in a leisurely coast right into the dock. I never heard why the engineers couldn't have taken over from downstairs... maybe there wasn't time, though that sounds curious.
I heard they replaced the computer-based controls with some kind of pneumatic system... something with more-direct relation between the wheelhouse controls and the equipment in the engine room.
Any of this sound right... or familiar? Thought there was a "Kitsap Class" at one time... ????
On your list of classes... there was a very small ship... somewhere in the Rhododendron class era... maybe the Hiyu or therebouts... don't think it was the Rhododendron... but maybe it was. It had ONE engine with shafts coming out both ends. It was controlled literally AT the engine, with a control wheel that went from "stop" at the center position, to one direction or the other, based on which way the engineer turned the wheel from center. The ship's heating furnace was used to heat the engine to operating temperature in the morning. It used an air starter that would push the engine one way or the other for directional control. the engine's air intake was at the car deck level, so it made some pretty interesting sounds when it was running. You could also look down the hatch at the operator's back while he was on-station... which was how you got "invited down", if you could get his attention..
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-18-2003 04:30 AM
Paul, the Ferry web site lists three classes of boats that operate the service. The news reports said that the vellel involved was due to be retired next year, so I would guess that it is from the oldest class, introduced in 1965, in which case the capacity would be rather less, something oiver three thousand, I think it said. The newest boats now in servive were stated to have a capacity for 6000. Still, as you say, it could have been much worse, if it had happened a couple of hours later.
The weather may well have been a contributory factor, but it was no worse than these boats must have operated in many times during their life, it must surely have been combined with either mechanical failure or human error to produce this result.
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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 10-18-2003 01:32 PM
Jack, the Siemens Propulsion Control systems were scrapped. Too unreliable. Too many dock crashes. I think the pneumatic system replaced it. I was in the engine rooms of the Cathlemet several years ago...very interesting setup. Incidently, the GE engines used in the Issaquah class ferries were the marine version of the GE locomotive engine. When the Stealth busted a crankshaft in one of her engines, WSF had one heck of a time finding a crankshaft for it. There were plenty available, but they were locomotive crankshafts and were not certified for marine use. Other than that, they were the same. I think the Kitsap busted one, also some time ago.
I have been told that when the Seimans Propulsion Systems failed on the Issaquah class boats, more often that not the glitch was severe enough where the engineering gang could not over-ride it.
The Kitsap is in the Issaquah 130 class. It was powered by two GE N-7 FDM-12 engines on an 11:1 gear reduction drive. Yes, variable pitch propellers are still being used as far as I know on that class of boats but I can't be certain of that.
The small boat you were thinking of was the Olympic. It had a huge Fairmanks-Morris 8 cylinder engine. That boat was retired and as far as I know it has been sold. I have a ton of video footage of the engineman running his engine.
It was a reversing Diesel engine. Shut the down, wait for the order, change the engine timing and give 'er a shot of air and she would start up in a helluva rumble in the opposite direction. (As the engineers told me, "Most of the time" it would start.....) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I wonder what kind of propulsion control systems the Stanten Ferries have.
Stephan, the boat that was involved in the Stanten accident was built in 1980 I think. And yes....I wonder about a mechanical failure, too. Maybe the captain looked like he was scrunched over the controls because he was saying to himself,
"Oh, My God...I have no control over thsi thing!!!" It is worth a thought.
[ 10-18-2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-18-2003 04:42 PM
Paul, do you know the name of the vessel involved itn the accident? I have looked, but have not been able to find it anywhere.
The ferry web site lists the following details of their craft:
quote:
Kennedy Class Boats:
There are three sister ships, the John F. Kennedy, the American Legion, and the Governor Herbert H. Lehman. This class began service in 1965. Each boat carries 3,500 passengers and up to 40 vehicles, with a crew of 13 plus one female attendant. The boats are 297 feet long, 69 feet, 10 inches wide, with a draft of 13 feet, 6 inches, weight of 2,109 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 6,500 horsepower.
The American Legion will be retired in the spring of 2004 when the new Guy V. Molinari comes into service. The Kennedy and the Lehman will be retired when two additional new boats come into service later in 2004 and in 2005.
Barberi Class Boats:
There are two sister ships, the Andrew J. Barberi and the Samuel I. Newhouse. The Barberi entered service in 1981 and the Newhouse in 1982. Each boat carries 6,000 passengers, with a crew of 15 plus one female attendant. The boats are 310 feet long, 69 feet, 10 inches wide, with a draft of 13 feet, 6 inches, weight of 3,335 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 7,000 horsepower.
Austen Class Boats:
There are two sister ships, the Alice Austen and the John A. Noble. This class began service in 1986. Each boat carries 1,280 passengers, with a crew of 9 plus one female attendant. The boats are 207 feet long, 40 feet wide, with a draft of 8 feet, 6 inches, weight of 499 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 3,200 horsepower.
The reports on British television news that I heard all mentioned that the vessel involved was due to be withdrawn next year. If this is correct, then it would seem from the above that it was a 'Kenedy' class that was involved, it also seems logical that the oldest vessels would be the first to be withdrawn, but I don't know for sure.
A 38 year old boat is getting on in years, but if well designed, built and maintained, which from what I saw of them they were, there is nothing wrong with that. It was reported that the ferry has an excellent safety record.
A loss of either power of control, at just the wrong moment, in combination with the rough weather conditions could cause something like this, and would be my best bet, but we will have to wait to learn the truth
I have been on all three of the 'Kennedy' Class Boats, but none of the more modern ones, about eight or ten trips altogether. Something that did strike me when I was on it was that as the ferry came in to dock at the terminal, many of the passengers were standing at the forward end of the two lower decks, the locals to make a quick exit, the tourists to get a good view, and take photographs. I wonder if this could have been partly responsible for the number of serious and fatal injuries? Were passengers actually thrown out of the vessel, into the water, where they would have been at great danger.
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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 10-18-2003 07:25 PM
Stephen, It was the Andrew J. Barberi. She was a very powerful machine.
You indicated:
quote:
..The boats are 310 feet long, 69 feet, 10 inches wide, with a draft of 13 feet, 6 inches, weight of 3,335 gross tons, service speed of 16 knots, and 7,000 horsepower.
Our Evergreen State Class is 310 feet in length 73 foot beam, and drafts 13 feet 3 inches of water. They are 2,500 HP and capable of making 13 knots. The Gross Net Tonnage is 2041.
As compared to the MV Barberi, our Evergreen State Class are wimps when it comes to horsepower.
The Issaquah 130 Class looks to be a closer match. They are 328 feet long with a beam of 78 feet 8 inches and draft 16 feet 3 inches of water. The GNT is 2475 and capable of making 16 knots. Those boats are powered by a Diesel-Reduction Gear as I have previously indicated. The Horsepower of the Issaquah Class is 5,000.
Just out of curiosity, can some of you New York'ers find out what the power plants are in the MV Barberi?
[ 10-19-2003, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-19-2003 02:40 AM
Thanks for the info Paul I wasn't able to find the name anywhere. So it was one of the larger, 1980s boats. These are not much bigger than the 'Kenedy' class, yet they managed to increase the capacity from 3500 to 6000. Strange that they are withdrawing these next year, there is no mention of this on their site. Do you know why? Or did the news reports get it wrong, had they heard that the older boats were going, and thought that the one involved in the accident was one of these?
At the other end of the route, next to the Whitehall terminal, there is what seems to be another ferry terminal, an older, ornate copper covered structure. It looks as if it has been disused for some time, and last time I was there, in April, it was covered in scafolding. What is/was this. Is it being restored, or demolished? The opening shot of 'West Side Story' shows the two buildings, but only in the distance, and I cannot make out any details on my 14 inch television. (I don't happen to have a 70mm print of it!)
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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 10-19-2003 08:34 AM
October 19, 2003
Ferry's Speed? Look Out a Window and Guess
By MIKE McINTIRE, The New York Times, p.37
How fast does a Staten Island ferry travel? Even the captain can only guess.[CONTINUED on link below.]
That is because there is "no speedometer at all, nothing that indicates speed on the vessels," a ferry captain testified last year. He estimated that the cruising speed was about 20 miles per hour — but he could not be sure.
What is more, although the boats are equipped with radar and compasses, the captains who make the 22-minute, 5-mile runs between Manhattan and Staten Island often rely on visual landmarks, like the fort on Governors Island, to judge when to begin slowing down. As they approach the dock, their assistants do little, if anything, to help.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/nyregion/19FERR.html
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