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Author Topic: Model Railroaders, anyone ? Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-29-2003 07:08 PM                        Mark -- the Film-Guard tanker car idea is great! But you wouldn't want to get actual Film-guard anywhere near the rails....the trains would never get any traction!  |  IP: Logged Gary Crawford Expert Film Handler Posts: 200 From: Neptune NJ USA Registered: Nov 2003 posted 12-30-2003 12:42 PM                     Great subject! I've been into railroading since I was allowed to play with my parents' 1948 Louis Marx O-27 set (which I still have, and it runs fine!) From there I got into HO and collected far too much stuff, as most of us do. I'm also into 1:1 steam. I joined NJ Museum of Transportation / Pine Creek RR of Allaire NJ when I was 14 and I'm still active 35 years later! I possess a NJ steam locomotive license, needed to run our equipment. Check Pine Creek out at www.njmt.org btw, Disneyland's #4, the Ernest S Marsh, originally belonged to Pine Creek. Disney bought it from us in 1957. It was our #1, a 1925 Baldwin 0-4-0 former saddle tanker. I put on an annual model train show in Ocean Grove NJ during their Victorian Holiday Celebration in December. I run the old Louis Marx set, a decent portable HO layout I built, and my daughters G-scale LGB set. Also part of the show are Thor Sheil, a Lionel collector and restorer, and Jersey Central N-Trackers, a local club who builds those 2X4 N-scale modules. My website for the model show is http://christmasandtrains.freeservers.com and there is a link to Thor's website with pics of our model show. Fellow film handling ferroequinologists! How many kits have you built in the booth? A few for me!  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 12-30-2003 11:07 PM                     I've been an 'armchair' modeler for quite some time. Its only been recently that I've had the financial resources and time to consider moving beyond reading Model Railroader and begin building a layout.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-31-2003 05:11 AM                     Very impressive layout, Brad...KUDOS! Now for some tech talk... Model railroad radio control (being able to control two trains completely independant of one another on the same layout) was first developed and comerically available in the early 1960's by General Electric and was calld ASTRACK (Automatic Simultaneous Train Control). With the use of todays computer systems, it is now possible to run hundreds of locomotives on the same layout completely independant of one another. Any serious model railroader should be famaliar with David Sutton's monumental book "The Complete Book of Model Railroading" with a forward by David Rose. Castle Books 1964 Library of Congress 64-21745. This book has ann extensive chapter on ASTRAC. This book also features several photos of rare Ward Kimball collection pieces. Probably the best model railroad magazine on the market today is Mainline Modeler. It is fairly easy to purchase used copies of Model Railroader, and a few others, but not so with Mainline, as people tend to hold onto them because of the tech info! The Japanese also have some excellent, but very expensive publications. As for live steam, there are some damn good magazines on the market, not to mention publications like Home Shop Machinist. Borders and Barnes and Noble stock many of these. Mark said that live steam is not that expensive? Dont know where he is getting that info from? Some of the comerically available kits are quite pricy and take a lot of work to machine and assemble...many of the kits contain raw castings with blueprints and instructions. For those who are interested, there is a large scale U.P. Challenger available, and I believe that there is one in operation at the live steam parks in the Phoenix area. Tucson has some excellent NMRA Master Modelers whose work has been featured in numerous national publications. One modeler, Winkler, scratched build an "O" Fine Scale brass 2-6-6-6. I am a self admitted brass-a-holic. As such, I am very familiar with the several importers, and the quality of their products. As well as the quality of commerically available investment castings for the scratch builder. Rather than posting a lot of info here, feel free to e-mail or p.m. me, and I'll do my best to answer questions.  |  IP: Logged Hillary Charles Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 748 From: York, PA, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-31-2003 08:31 AM                     There's a great book called "Walt Disney's Railroad Story," which covers Ward Kimball, Ollie Johnston, Disney's backyard railroad and it's eventual metamorphosis into Disneyland and beyond. Many great illustrations and anecdotes (but no guinea pigs--can't have everything ). Hillary  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-31-2003 11:07 AM                     Will, it's not my layout. I had absolutely nothing to do with it. I just had some pictures on the hard drive and thought I would post them.  |  IP: Logged Gary Crawford Expert Film Handler Posts: 200 From: Neptune NJ USA Registered: Nov 2003 posted 12-31-2003 01:51 PM                     Hillary, I have that book. Beware though, as a lot of the story of Disney acquiring (the agent who bought it was the author's father btw) our old 1925 Baldwin 0-4-0 (now Disneyland's #4 2-4-0) has some inaccuracies, and possibly the rest of the book does too. Still, it is quite an interesting story just the same! Model Railroader or RMC recently had an article on Disney's RRs too, mostly his personal home operation. Be advised 1:1 fans, some of your favorite full-size steam locos may not be running anymore. After the explosion at Gettysburg RR in 1994, and then the steam tractor explosion in Ohio in 2001, the feds got involved in new and tighter inspections of "antique and hobby boilers" (which live steamers are exempt from, so far). If your fave engine doesn't meet specs it ain't gonna run. Repairs have to be done by a certified R-Stamp locomotive boiler shop now (NJMT Pine Creek is a certified R-Stamp shop, info on it can be had at www.njmt.org )  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 12-31-2003 03:56 PM                    The new regs are tighter in some ways but much more reasonable in others. For example, under the old rules boilers needed to have the tubes pulled every five years of use that a detailed inspection could be done of the boiler shell from the inside. If a boiler was fired up even one day in a given month it counted the same as if it were used all month long. Now it will only count as a day and you can go 1472 operating days (or up to 15 years) between such major inspections. The regs also take into account advances that have been made in such techniques as ultrasonic measurement to determine the thickness of boiler plate. The Gettysburg accident was due to the crew's not knowing how to properly clear the water level sight glass, thus allowing a low water condition to overheat the crown sheet (roof of the firebox) and failure. Being a Canadian engine, the staybolt pattern allowed it to fail in a way that was not as catestrophic as crown sheet failures usually are. No one died.  |  IP: Logged Hillary Charles Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 748 From: York, PA, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-31-2003 05:46 PM                     I'm reasonably close to Gettysburg and remember the accident. It's a shame that they've been so scared by steam. I think a reproduction American 4-4-0, like those at Promontory Point, with civil war era coaches would be a spectacular attraction for history buffs and railfans alike. I'm also reasonably close to the Strasburg RR. in Lancaster County. I've had a few cab rides in #89 and could really get into 1:1 scale, if the coal weren't so dirty. Their safety record is superb. As for the Disney book, ever since reading about Disney's omitting credits of people who went on strike (around 1940?), I take any "history" with a grain of salt. The photos are fantastic, though.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-31-2003 10:29 PM                     Aren't temperature/pressure relief valves supposed to prevent boiler explosions? On Bob's engine (the guy in my picture) he has TWO pop-offs. Each is set to a slightly different relief points. One is set slightly above his desired operating pressure. The other is set slightly below his maximum safe pressure. His modus operandi for this is that when the first one goes off his boiler is up to "full steam". If the second one goes off he knows the pressure's getting too high. When he fires it up, he lets the pressure build until the first pop-off blows. Then he adds a bit of water, stokes the fire and disconnects the blower. After a few more minutes he's ready to roll. He built it up from a kit and then customized it several times over. It started out as a gasoline powered engine. Then he added a boiler but it was powered by a propane tank. Later he added the coal boiler. He's got a side track that goes through a "doggie door" into his basement. He rolls it down there and works on it when he's done steaming around the yard. He tells me he cleans the tubes and checks the boiler at least once a year. This guy just KNOWS his engine. He'll be standing there chatting about something and suddenly he'll turn around and say, "Oh, I've got to check something." After a few moments he's done tinkering and he's ready to take off again. It's a lot like the way a good projectionist works but it still just seems like ESP or something.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 12-31-2003 11:03 PM                     In the steam era, it is widely recognized that Lima Locomotive Works, who was the smallest among the "Big Three", the other two being Alco and Baldwin, was the most innovative. On larger locomotives, such as the Alco built U.P. Big Boys and Challengers, there were generally four sight glasses (two for the engineer and two for the fireman) placed at different levels to one another. The problem with sight-glasses is that 1: they can become plugged or 2: being on various graades can cause false readings. As such, an experienced fireman, along with the engineer, needed to be very familiar with their territory and the ability to compensate for these reading changes. As an added precaution, both Barco and Nathan, and I think Westinghouse (manufacturers of locomotive sub-components) developed low water alarms. But Lima's and S.P.'s development of the Boiler Drop Plug was by far the best safety device. On the Lima built S.P. G.S. (Golden State/General Service "Daylight" 4-8-4 locomotives, had 5 of these plugs in the firebox crown-sheet. "The drop plug was developed by F.E. Russell Sr., and was adopted system wide in 1932. They greatly ddiffered from the more common fusable meetal plug. When the water level got too low over the standard fusable metal plug, the heat would melt the fusable metal allowing steam to blow through. The problem was that once the steam rushed through the molten metal, the plug would cool and only a small opening would form, not allowing enough steam through to extinguish the fire. The SP's boiler drop plug consisted of a brass button sweated into a plug body with a mixture of one part tin and eight parts lead. Should the water get too low and the crown sheets too hot,the fusable metal would melt and the brass button would drop out, allowing enough steam to smother the fireand prevent a boiler explosion. The reliability and effectiveness of these drop plugs was demonstrated many times in actual service. Evidence of its need before it was developed is shown by the fact that the only GS engine to blow up was the 4402 near Richvale, California on January 25, 1931. Cause was a faulty injector and subsequent low water." "Those Daylight 4-8-4's The Story of Southern Pacific GS Class Locomotives by R.J. Church, Kratville Publications 1966 First Edition page 25 For an excellent article on the cause and effect of boiler explosions, see "Big Bang No Theory ppgs 64-69 Trains Magaazine 1995 by Ed King  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 01-01-2004 12:14 PM                    Randy, boiler explosions are almost never caused by overpressure for exactly the safety ("pop") valves you mention. A locomotive boiler has a barrel section which is nearly filled with water and is traversed by many small tubes carrying the hot gasses from the firebox at the rear to the smokebox at the front. The firebox itself is double-walled with the space in between filled with water and open into the barrel part of the boiler. The space between varies from several inches around the sides and back to over a foot above. At the pressures involved (up to 300 psi on some later engines; 200 is more typical) there are 15-20 tons of pressure on each square foot of firebox wall. To keep the walls from flying apart there are thousands of staybolts holding the inner and outer sheets together. The roof of the firebox, called the crownsheet, is normally covered by water. But if the water level drops and the crown sheet is uncovered the steel will soften from the heat and the tons of pressure will cause it to sag down between the staybolts and, eventually separate. If this happens suddenly an explosion will result. The water in the boiler is superheated--it's liquid only because it's under pressure. At 200 psi it has a temperature of 388°F. In a boiler explosion it will flash to into steam. There have been many cases of crownsheet failure explosions where the entire boiler has been ripped from the frame and tossed down the track by the rocket-like force of the escaping steam. Others have exploded with little visible damage to the outside but typically anyone in the cab is killed. The Gettysburg people were saved by the designed which made the explosion a bit more gradual.  |  IP: Logged Gary Crawford Expert Film Handler Posts: 200 From: Neptune NJ USA Registered: Nov 2003 posted 01-01-2004 12:38 PM                     Steve, another thing that prevented much more damage at Gettysburg was that the firebox door was open at the time, helping to dissipate the instant forces that blew when the crownsheet failed. Otherwise the blast would have been straight down through the grates, possibly launching the locomotive. The official cause was, like you said, the sight glass being not only plugged but built up with scale so bad that even if it worked the water level probably wouldn't have been seen. Here in NJ we have always had probably the strictest pressure vessels laws and regs on the books. We were inspected annually by state inspectors, not someone from Hartford Insurance like most of the PA operations had. We didn't have a problem at all going for the R-Stamp as we always ran a tight ship anyway. It did involve a lot of extra paperwork but we did what they told us and as a matter of fact just passed our first annual audit by the feds. NJ Museum of Transportation / Pine Creek RR was the first museum/tourist line to get the R-Stamp certification. Strasburg (as would be imagined) was right behind us with theirs. They do run a tight ship too, Linn Moedinger and his crew should be commended for their work. As far as another post, I know this applies to live steam, but on the 1:1 units we DO test the safeties at least once a day as per regs but we don't fire up and let them go and THEN add water. That would put far too much stress on boiler steel and shorten the life of the vessel. Pine Creek is in the process of restoring, totally, our 1912 Porter Mogul. Recently completed a brand-new tender, new brasses for the 3 drive axles, new drive tires, and now work is back to speed on the boiler barrel. It is taking longer than originally planned but it is being done right the first time. Our website has info and pics www.njmt.org  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 01-01-2004 02:09 PM                       quote: ever since reading about Disney's omitting credits of people who went on strike (around 1940?), I take any "history" with a grain of salt. The 1941 strike changed forever the way Walt Disney thought about his employees. He subsequently became mistrustful of those under his employ. The strike came about because of promises Disney allegedly made to his staff in 1937, that their sacrifices to finish "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves" would be repaid with big bonuses from the profits. When Disney instead used the money to expand his studio, and later laid-off artists after "Fantasia" failed at the boxoffice, the stage was set for organizing a union shop. Some of the picketers included Art Babbitt (the organizer), Bill Tytla, Hank Ketcham (later, of "Dennis the Menace" fame), Bill Melendez, and future UPA greats John Hubley and Steve Bosustow.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-01-2004 10:43 PM                     I knew the part about superheated steam/water but I didn't realize about the crownsheet part. So, then, it would seem that (as long as the pop-offs are working) a boiler can take just about anything you can throw at it pressure-wise... PROVIDED you keep enough water in it lest you melt the steel. No?  |  IP: Logged

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