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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Jet Crashing into Concrete Barrier (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Jet Crashing into Concrete Barrier
Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 10-06-2004 05:57 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At the beginning of the ETOPS era, I think the first widely used time limit was 120 minutes. In addition to what Daryl wrote, the time limit also applies to flight planning. You must plan your route such that you are never more than the time limit away from a suitable airport at single-engine cruise speed. ETOPS 120 works well for crossing the North Atlantic since great circle routing (and the NATS--North Atlantic Track Structure) between the east coast of the US and Europe easily fits within the 120 time limit.

For other routes (like over the Pacific) ETOPS 120 meant having to fly longer than great circle distances in order to hug the coasts and meet the time limit. Hence the push for ever higher ETOPS limits. Some of the engines on today's jets are considered reliable enough to allow ETOPS 208. At this point I think most are certified up to ETOPS 180. Normally an engine/airframe combination must have a proven track record to be granted this, but some, like the B-777, were certified to ETOPS 180 right from day one without an operational trial period, based on previous engine experience on other airframes. With ETOPS 208 there are very few city-pairs left in the world that can't be flown on a great circle. The present long-distance champ is Singapore Air's flight 21 Newark, NJ to Singapore--18 hours 35 minutes of daily non-stop service using an A340-500! Depart EWR 11:00pm tonight, arrive SIN 5:35am Friday. Can you say "flat ass"? [Eek!]

There have been a couple of total flameouts in jets over the years, but none due to engine failure AFAIK. Do a search on "Gimli Glider" (sorry Daryl! [Embarrassed] ) for the story of an Air Canada B-767 that became a glider one day in July 1983. Not to worry, the amazing story has a happy ending.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-06-2004 06:03 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
OK...I just GOTTA chime in here on this thread:

Y A W N !

Paul, I think you and Daryl should get a room!

>>> Phil

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 10-06-2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Did someone say something, or was that a buffalo fart? [Razz]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-06-2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK Phil. You start a thread that is completely entertaining. And every post had better be freakin' awesome or you're BANNED!

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 10-06-2004 06:51 PM      Profile for Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Author's Homepage   Email Daryl C. W. O'Shea   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No problem Paul, I didn't want to bring up talk of side slips in a 767 -- fun! [Big Grin]

If I remember correctly one of the Discovery channels (Civilization maybe) has a "Mayday" episode about it.

Somewhere I've got a picture of this aircraft taxiing at YYZ.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-06-2004 07:59 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, WTF stepped on your tail? I didn't say ANYTHING about the premise of the thread... I enjoyed it.

I was commenting on the anal-retentive stuff from Daryl and Paul.

OBTW: Lose MOST of your sig... [thumbsup]

>>> Phil

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 10-06-2004 08:16 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does "anal-retentive" really have a hyphen in it? [Big Grin]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-06-2004 08:18 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know Phil. I'm just challenging you to start a thread and make it so that boring people like Paul and Daryl don't start posting in it. [Smile]

Lose most of my sig? Why on Earth would I want to do that? It would lessen my point.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 10-07-2004 01:48 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Do a search on "Gimli Glider" (sorry Daryl! [Embarrassed] ) for the story of an Air Canada B-767 that became a glider one day in July 1983. Not to worry, the amazing story has a happy ending.
That book I bought included an account of the incident. Can't help thinking that it might not have been a happy ending if it wasn't for the pilot's knowledge of gliders and of the existence of that disused airfield.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 11-08-2004 12:24 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some additional info for Leo's next trip to The Great White North... [Smile] It seems Air Transat managed to run one of their A330's completely out of fuel while out over the pond in August. The crew bungled a fuel leak diagnosis (aided and abetted by some ambiguous Airbus indications for the situation) and basically pumped all of the fuel overboard through the leak. Things then got very quiet. [Roll Eyes]

But the captain did manage to glide from 18,000' and 65 miles out and safely deadstick the airplane into the Azores. Everyone (all 306) made it OK.

Air Transat has offered $12,500 to each of the 293 pax in compensation--90 of them have accepted so far. Of course there is a lawsuit now in the works.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 11-08-2004 01:30 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gee, thanks for the morale boost Paul! And I read that post only seconds after completing my online check-in for Northwest flight 55 tomorrow. Anyhow, if it should turn into an aluminium shower distributing bits of DC-10 all over the Atlantic or north-east Canada I'll be sure to go down with a beer in one hand and a shit lit novel about air disasters in the other... [thumbsup]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-11-2004 01:54 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Air Transat Flight 236 incident:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041020/news_1n20azores.html

quote:
October 20, 2004

MONTREAL – The Canadian pilot who was hailed as a hero for gliding a packed, powerless airliner to an emergency landing in the Azores three years ago made mistakes that allowed all the jet's fuel to drain out through an engine leak, a Portuguese aviation agency said Monday.

Portugal's Aviation Accidents Prevention and Investigation Department said the leak was caused by improper replacement of a Rolls-Royce engine on the Airbus 330 jet operated by Canadian charter flight operator Air Transat.

Capt. Robert Piche avoided calamity for the Air Transat flight's 306 passengers and crew when he flew the big jet for 65 miles without power, gliding through darkened skies to make a landing-gear-crunching landing at the Lajes Airport in Terceira.

The only injuries – to 16 passengers and two crew members – came during the evacuation of the plane on the Lajes runway.

Piche said the report represents the final chapter in the incident and would not comment further.

Piche's deft command of the flight's last 19 minutes, when the jet was without engine power, has been cited as one of the finest piloting achievements in modern aerospace.

But in its 103-page report on the "all engines-out landing," the agency suggested Piche's heroics might not have been needed had the crew followed proper procedures in detecting and dealing with a fuel leak in the right engine.

The investigating agency said the crew did not correctly evaluate the engine-leak situation, and then did not follow the proper checklist.

Instead of shutting down the fuel lines leading to the right engine, the crew cross-fed fuel from the left-engine tanks to the source of the leak. That allowed all of the jet fuel to drain.

"The flight crew did not recognize that a fuel leak situation existed and carried out the fuel imbalance procedure from memory, which resulted in the fuel from the left tanks being fed to the leak in the right engine," the agency said.

The 103-page report details the events that led up to the Aug. 24, 2001, flight from Toronto to Lisbon, which took off with more than enough fuel to reach its intended destination.

Problems began days earlier when Air Transat's maintenance crew replaced the jet's right engine with one that had not been retrofitted for an updated configuration.

Air Transat technicians did not review a Rolls-Royce service bulletin that would have indicated a hazard in mismatching fuel and hydraulic lines, the agency said.

As a result, a fuel inlet tube on the newly installed right engine failed after chafing and hard contact with a hydraulic line, the agency said.

About four hours into the flight, the crew noticed unusual oil readings in the right engine, and then a fuel imbalance between the left and right inner-wing tanks.

The flight crew diverted to the Azores as the fuel problem worsened. About 150 miles from Lajes, the right engine flamed out. The left engine followed suit 13 minutes later.

Flying without engine power, the passenger cabin dark save for emergency lighting, Piche brought the Airbus down to a hard, tire-shredding landing.


http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/op-ed/ed269.htm

quote:
Air Transat Flight 236
By Devon Leslie
It had been a relatively calm flight on the morning of August 24th, 2001. Air Transat Flight 236 out of Toronto was heading to Lisbon, Portugal to deliver a new batch of vacationers. The Airbus 330, cruising at 39,000, sped through the atmosphere at .84 Mach while her passengers slept. She was the pride of the airline, and she let everyone know as the whir of her Rolls-Royce engines sang to the occupants. Only the aircraft fuel computer knew the dark secret brewing on the right wing. A secret that had been interpreted as a fuel imbalance in the right tank. It was only a matter of time before the secret would shake every occupants' courage to their knees.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh38798_2004-10-18_20-47-19_n18676681_newsml

quote:
Pilot hero of Azores jet landing made errors-report
Mon Oct 18, 2004 04:47 PM ET
By Robert Melnbardis
MONTREAL, Oct 18 (Reuters) - The Canadian pilot who was hailed as a hero for gliding a packed, powerless airliner to an emergency landing in the Azores three years ago made mistakes that allowed all the jet's fuel to drain out through an engine leak, a Portuguese aviation agency said on Monday.

Portugal's Aviation Accidents Prevention and Investigation Department also said improper replacement of a Rolls-Royce (RR.L: Quote, Profile, Research) engine on the Airbus 330 jet, which was operated by Canadian charter flight operator Air Transat, led to the fuel leak.

Air Transat is owned by vacation travel company Groupe Transat A.T. Inc. (TRZ.TO: Quote, Profile, Research) , while European aerospace group EADS (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) owns Airbus.

Captain Robert Piche avoided calamity for the Air Transat flight's 306 passengers and crew when he flew the big jet for 65 nautical miles (120 km, 75 miles) without power, gliding silently through darkened skies to make a landing-gear-crunching landing at the Lajes Airport in Terceira.



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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 11-11-2004 03:56 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I find it very hard to imagine that a plane of that size can actually glide without engine power over such a long distance. I would have thought it would sink for a couple of miles, then drop like a stone.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 11-11-2004 04:16 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
More engiineless gliding stories.

The first one seems almost incredible. How could the crew not realise that they had only half the required fuel load? Don't they check the actual quantity of fuel loaded against that called for? Don't they also check it against what would be a reasonable fuel load for an aircraft of that type making a flight of that distance?

Doesn't this also make a strong case for the universal use of metric uniits for this sort of thing? Although rare, thiis isn't the first case I've heard of where a safety-critical system has failed due to confusion over units. At least if all metric units were used it is likely that an error would be very large, and unlikely to pass unnoticed.

If the required load was 10 tonnes (10,000kg) for example, and it were to be mistaken for 10kg, or 10,000 tonnes, or even 1 tonne, it would be unlikely that the error would not be spotted. With mixed metric and imperial units, some of the combinations are close enough not to be noticed, but far enough out to cause problems.

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