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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Topic: Michael Moore = Best Picture?
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Mark J. Marshall
Film God
Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 11-13-2004 09:07 PM
quote: Adam Wilbert
give me a break. Its all about spin from both sides, so don't act like moore is the only one playing that game
I'm not sure who that's directed to, and I'm not sure what you mean by the pot calling the kettle black. Moore, like everyone else in this country, is of course free to try and make any point he wants in his films. And he's also free to completely fabricate a newspaper headline out of thin air, and call it a fact, and use that to back up his film's point. My question is, what amount of fiction has to take place in his film before its status as a 'documentary' is in question. The word 'documentary' to me suggests 'non-fiction' but I could be wrong in that definition.
He could of course be eligible for a 'best picture' nod, I'm just not sure about 'best documentary.'
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Adam Wilbert
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 590
From: Bellingham, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-14-2004 04:11 AM
Phil, boy do I feel stupid. I only saw them both this year, so i assumed they were more recent than that. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Uh, in that case, I have no pick for best documentary this year!
Mark, the point was that some people will come down on Moore for bending/altering/warping/distorting/etc. the truth, and ignore the same behavior from "the other side." I wasn't saying the newspaper was calling the kettle black, after all, they should call attention to the misrepresentation. It just irks me that people in general seem to be more upset about possible misrepresentation in a documentary than possible misrepresentation in government. I really feel like i'm going too far into "read the faq" territory, and don't want to get banned, so i'll stop here. If this whole paragraph gets deleted, at least everyone can refer to my above time-warped stupidity!
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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene
Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 11-14-2004 04:41 AM
Hmmmm.. lets see... how to make this non political... hmmm....
quote: Thomas Procyk
The film works more like a fractured or double-voiced narrative, showing one group of people vehemently making one set of claims, and then that same group contradicting themselves as "events unfold." At least, that's what I got out of it.
The problem is that this film is not about how events unfold. In fact it was about how MM unfolded it for you. He presented a list of facts, in the order he wanted, in the way he wanted it viewed, and added his little twist for the audience. The problem is, that a phone book is a list of facts too. Depending on how you arrange it, is how it comes out. If the facts in 911 were presented as they actually happened, in thier correct order, and in thier entirety, and without the self aggrandizing opinionation, the film would not have been inflammitory, because it would have been just the news clips for the most part that they were.
Hell I can take a series of news clips, cut them the way I want them to actually look, interview people and cut thier interviews off for the effect I want, and interlay my own opinion into it, and then I will get plenty of people to believe my own bullshit just like MM did.
It's what politicos do.
quote: Adam Wilbert
Mark, the point was that some people will come down on Moore for bending/altering/warping/distorting/etc. the truth, and ignore the same behavior from "the other side." I wasn't saying the newspaper was calling the kettle black, after all, they should call attention to the misrepresentation. It just irks me that people in general seem to be more upset about possible misrepresentation in a documentary than possible misrepresentation in government
I think we can tackle this without it getting political.. anyone else willing to second that???
First of all, who is this "other side"? When you talk about the difference between misrepresentation in documentaries, and misrepresentations in government, it brings up questions as to what is fair?
First of all, no one likes misrepresentations in government. However, so far, in F911, all of the so called misrepresentations that were shown to us have proven to be false. Also, if you read the 911 commission report, the commission so loved by those that hated our current president BEFORE the report came out, and then so hated AFTER the report came out, and also read the senate intelligence oversight committees report, you will find that all the assertions by those that wished to depose the president based on supposed misrepresentations were all in fact very false.
On to the F911 misrepresentations, as I said, all the insinuations were all proven to be false not just by the reports, but also by those that chose to investigate and find the truth of what they were looking at, instead of taking it as pablum, as so much fox news or cbs or whatever.
MM had and still has a political agenda, and that is to depose conservatives at all costs. He bends and twists and makes it look as if all others are doing that. I used to know people like this. In fact we all probably know someone like this. They feel they are smarter than the rest of us and have that tone where they speak down to us like we are not worthy to be heard.
Since this conversation took the road of discussing why MM is an idiot versus why the government or anyone else on the "other side" is an idiot... well take this under advisement.... the "other side" just wants to be heard too.
remember that all this crap started the day that al gore lost the election. People just went ape shit crazy. They forgot what our country was about and instead emboldened themselves to win power back at all costs, truth be damned.
It is a sad commentary when one political party will out of spite attack the other. I am referring to both of course, since both have done it. Even now through one of the most convincing political elections in our history, you still have the politics of hate beginning to spew out and try once again to destroy and devide.
It is time to put people like MM out to pasture. Anyone who puts hate to work in order to depose others should be shot. Did everyone forget that we vote to change things, not hate to change things?
Jeebers people!!!
Ciao baby
dave
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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-14-2004 01:06 PM
As much as I would love to reply to another one of Dave Williams' novelettes, I'm afraid I can't do so without breaking forum rules on political content.
What I will say is what has been repeated over and over much like the changeover vs. platter debate (btw, platters are awesome and changeovers fund terrorism). If you apply the theory of, "He presented a list of facts, in the order he wanted, in the way he wanted it viewed, and added his little twist for the audience." then EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF FILM, PRINT, OR ART falls into that category. Yes, even the phone book. It's arranged in alphabetical order. I bet the phone company is saying that Phill Hill is more important than Brad Miller because he's listed first. And why do ATTORNEYS get more pages than anyone in the yellow book? And they're listed before DOCTORS... what does THAT tell you?!?! Nonsense, that's what.
Take a documentary on the destruction of the rainforest and how it's killing some endangered monkey that airs on Discovery Channel. Clearly one-sided since it doesn't show the side of the timber companies and how it benefits the paper and lumber industry. It doesn't show that this particular monkey is the #1 cause of such-and-such a disease and its extinction would be beneficial... nope! Just a one-sided, LIBERAL bias on why these 50-year old trees should be around for another 50.
Those folks at the Discovery Channel take the facts, chop them up, and put them in the order in which it will effectively get THEIR message across... rainforest destruction = bad. Does that mean that it's NOT a documentary? Hardly.
quote: Dave Williams
Hell I can take a series of news clips, cut them the way I want them to actually look, interview people and cut thier interviews off for the effect I want, and interlay my own opinion into it, and then I will get plenty of people to believe my own bullshit just like MM did.
Yes, and that's exactly what 99% of all non-live news broadcasts are. Especially those interviews where the answers were taped 2 weeks before the questions.
If you've actually SEEN the movie, it's not like Michael Moore asks, "How do you feel about the War on Terror" and then it cuts to Bush saying, "Well, when I lived on the Ranch in Texas, we shot deer. [CUT] that's how the American People [CUT] should be treated [CUT] if they disagree with my agenda."
Making that claim in itself is a lie. You then become what you hate. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
IMHO, people love to be comfortable in their ignorance. I'll admit, I am one of them when it comes to anything medical. I'd much rather a doctor not tell me about a terminal disease so that I can live out my remaining years carefree, and without the burden of knowing what doom is on the horizon. I think that's how most Americans feel about the state of the country. If someone tries to warn us about our impending terminal disease, it's easier to blow them off than do anything about it.
=TMP=
PS, Adam: quote: Adam Wilbert
BTW Thomas, I'm glad to see you're back regularly now.
Well, it's good to know someone is! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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