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Topic: Starbucks workers go on strike!

Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-27-2005 01:56 PM

That math would work Gordon if the person only purchased 40 things each week. I know I buy too many things, as it is.

quote: Bobby Henderson
A major corporation will wave the American flag and exude patriotism in its marketing, yet move factories over to Red China to exploit an impoverished and persecuted labor force. We talk a big game about things like "freedom," but when our quarterly report is involved in the equation we look the other way when human rights crimes are committed.

There were a lot of things to reply to, but this one raised my eyebrow quite a bit. We can all agree that China is not the poster child for supporting human rights, however there is a much larger picture that is often overlooked when the object is to attack "big buisness".

Would it be better that the planet cut off a country like china? If we isolated them and treated them like complete criminals, this would lead to eventual war when they decide they have had enough of being cut off.

By allowing American companies to do business in a country like China, we end up with our foot in the door, and a stake in how things are. As we do more business there, more people become aware of the plight of the people there. Pressure begins to build, not in the threat of loss of business, but rather that the country knows to keep the increase to thier economy, they must begin to make changes. Things in china are improving. Human rights ovbservers have noticed this as well. It could still take decades more, and with a country the size of china, war to liberate the people is not an option.

The last thing we would want to do is isolate this country. Better to do business with the devil and keep him at bay, then to cut him off and suffer the rath. In time, the devil looses steam, as people realize that freedom is what they want, not rigid communism. It happened to the USSR, it will happen in China.

The process of opening up China has taken decades. It is not going to be over quickly. China is not a threat to the US, however if we were to concentrate solely on thier human rights violations and cut them off, they could easily become a threat.

Ciao

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99

posted 11-27-2005 04:39 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
Dunno...French Fry workers seem harder to out-source! They already out source computer engineers.

Problem is, if everyone is a french fry maker, who are you going to sell fries to?

quote: Greg Mueller
The stuff in quotes is my way of quoting Bruce's, uh, thoughts.
Just want to make sure you didn't think it was me

Not at all.. [Smile]

I pulled them out of Bruce's post, the system just got confused, apparently.

quote: Gordon McLeod
hmm by my math that leaves him 50 cents ahead if he chooses what he purcahses

So by raising his wage, the only way he comes out ahead is to buy less? He can still buy the movie ticket, but, if he buys the Coke he endeds up behind.

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-27-2005 06:15 PM

Dave,
Very well said. I have a hard time when I hear people say shit about China. It rubs me the wrong way, so to speak. Some of my best friends are Chinese, and they are no different than you or me. They only speak a different language, thats all. I could go on and on about unions and labor rates in the states. I will tell you from personal experience, the people there want to work. I would rather hire somebody who is happy as hell to get 100 dollars a month, than somebody who thinks he "deserves" 50 dollars an hour just because he is in a union. Moving factories to China creates big business for them, and a good opportunity for everyone.

Just my 2 cents, Rick

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Jeremy Jorgenson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1002
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Feb 2005

posted 11-27-2005 10:14 PM

Mmmmm, I just finished drinking some Starbucks.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-28-2005 12:05 AM

quote:
Most upper management did not START in upper management, but worked their way up. Damn then for their personal achievement/reward!

This is true in most smaller corporations and small business. But when it comes to major "Fortune 500" level multinational corporations, the executives tend to be journeyman free agent types.

One example is Carly Fiorina, the former president and CEO of Hewlett-Packard. She spent 20 years at AT&T before getting the lead job at HP. Micheal Ovitz had a really short tenture running Disney (about half a year) -and got a 9-figure paycheck for doing it. Apple had a couple different executives that made bad decisions (John Sculley) and even worse decisions (Gil Amelio) before co-founder Steve Jobs came back to take control of the company and get it on the right path. Jobs cared a little more about the health of his venture while other executives tended to care more about the amenities in the company lear jet.

quote: Dave Williams
Would it be better that the planet cut off a country like china? If we isolated them and treated them like complete criminals, this would lead to eventual war when they decide they have had enough of being cut off.

I'm not talking about cutting off China. However, what we are doing is the extreme opposite of that. We're letting the Chinese government do whatever they want. They can pirate or counterfeit any American intellectual property they choose. They can freely break any trade rule without worrying about any consequences. They can manipulate their currency to put American made products at an even worse price disadvantage. They can operate factories in as cheap, filthy and dangerous a manner as possible and pay workers as little as possible with impunity.

We turn a blind eye since they own more than $700 Billion in T-Bills and have so many labor and manufacturing deals with very wealthy international corporations.

quote: Richard Hamilton
Very well said. I have a hard time when I hear people say shit about China. It rubs me the wrong way, so to speak. Some of my best friends are Chinese, and they are no different than you or me.

My slams on China should not be read as racist. The Chinese government is indeed doing a lot of unethical things. My being a White American should not make it off limits for me to point out some of those disturbing facts. To add to all the business problems I listed, the Chinese government is selling plenty of arms to countries like Iran and Syria -who then smuggle those weapons into Iraq and kill our soldiers.

As for Asian-race citizens in this country, I tend to refer to them as Americans. I've got a bunch of Irish blood in me, but I'm not Irish (as to be mistaken for an Irish citizen). I'm an American. Not a hyphenate.

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Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 545
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 11-28-2005 08:13 AM

It is my understanding that in many developing countries, the US and other international corporations provide many of the best available jobs, compared to the other options workers have, which is often no job.

One could make the arguement that the people in China, ect. would be worse off if not for the US corporations.

Economic development does not happen overnight, nor did all of the luxuries that we have here in the US.

I agree with Dave. The chinese situation is slowly improving and we are on the right course.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-28-2005 08:23 AM

Some may insist "we're on the right course with China." Meanwhile, we're undermining the middle class of the United States. 75% of our economy is consumer spending. At some point, all the downsizing and outsourcing along with completely uncontrolled price spikes in various sectors like education, medical, fuel, etc. are going to bike our economy right in the ass.

This country is not going to outsource its way to prosperity, especially when a great deal of outsourcing is happening to college level white collar "information technology" jobs.

Can America survive if we're an entire nation of waitors and burger flippers?

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Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 545
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 11-28-2005 02:23 PM

It is countries that are shut off from the world trade markets that are poor and undeveloped...The US is affluent because it trades with other countries all over the world (China included), not the other way around.

Remember, we also insource jobs and money from international companies. Look at the car industry: Toyota, Honda, ect. build cars here, giving Americans jobs at the expense of the Japanese.

There are no solutions to problems in economics, just trade-offs between various painful options.

Thats why economics is sometimes called "the dismal science".

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-28-2005 04:17 PM

Ragging on company boats, planes, trains......

If a company buys one of these as a tax write off, it has to be used for business purposes (to be a write off). A lot of the time to entertain clients. Yes the company guys get to have fun on it too. But I think about it this way...
If Joe Boeing entertains Mr Chang (on his boat, plane, train) and sells him 80 billion dollars worth of jets, because Mr Chang had a good time and got drunk or laid or both, more power to Joe Boeing. Because all those jets that Mr Chang bought are putting 80,000 workers to work. And they are spending 80,000 paychecks, buying cars and food and houses and movie tickets. If letting Joe Boeing write off his boat, train, plane and it results in this type of money changing hands, I say "Why not buy a couple of boats, trains, planes?" "Go Joe, Go."
I think a lot of people are just jealous because they don't understand that this is the way business gets done and they aren't on the boat, train, plane. There are reasons why things work the way they do

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God

Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 11-28-2005 04:26 PM

Company train -- why the heck don't I have one of those. That could be fun. I always wanted to pilot a train. The CRA is going to have a fit. [Big Grin]

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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 11-28-2005 04:59 PM

Dave, don't look now, but I totally agree with you on all the points you've made this thread. Thank that crook Nixon for getting things going with China, by the way.

Minimum wage is a retarded idea and what's worse is that the states aren't even all the same. There can be dollars of difference across state lines, so where do you think the kids will want to work? That of course forces the businesses on the other side to raise wages to compete and then people in that community eat those costs and they're not even the ones that live in the more retarded state to begin with.

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-28-2005 05:14 PM

If I remember correctly, the Toyota plant in Southern Indiana ...never mind, i lost my train of thought.

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-28-2005 07:13 PM

quote: Greg Mueller
things just don't happen instantly in the business world.

Actually, this is an advantage that small business has over big business, they can, and do react instantly to changing demands. And yes, that is something I have learned in my many years in business.

Let's see if I can fix some fuzzy math. Let's say there is a 50 cent hike in MW. You go to Burger King, the order taker, and cook (to use the term lightly) spend about 2 minutes each on your order. That's a 3.3 cent increase in your $6.60 order, or a 0.5% increase. Not a 50 cent increase on a $1.00 item.

quote: Greg Mueller
What a load of crap. Sounds like it came right out of "the little red book"

Greg, that comment is beneath you. If you cannot find anything specific to argue with, then I must be right. [Big Grin]

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Travis Hubrig
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 175
From: Minot ND, USA
Registered: May 2003

posted 11-29-2005 12:10 AM

I agree with most of the posts on this thread, except the anti-union comments.

I have worked for about 18 months for a very large company and I am a member of a large union. It is hard to read these comments because I am very happy with my union. The airline unions are a bad example, the industry has had some very difficult times. If it was your job and your wage being cut, would you stand by and allow it? Many think the union is being greedy and trying to get more money or benefits for its members. I think the airline unions are trying to save jobs and wages. Time to downsize? No matter how hard the unions fight, union employees working for the airlines will probably lose jobs anyway.

My experience so far with my union has been a good one. I receive annual COLA raises, and a decent wage. I also get good benefits and vacation time. The union also keeps the company from eliminating jobs.

The company I work for constantly negotiates with the union trying to cut labor costs. This is ok on the business side, except the industry has set records for revenue for the past 2 years. I am glad the union will not allow them at this point to cut my job or someone else's job when they are making more money then ever. There are many laws regarding employment and labor unions. If the company or union are not being fair or negotiating fairly, arbitrators and the court system is brought in to settle cases and prevent strikes.

Overall most of the people I work with like their jobs. There are always a few who will never be satisfied to go to work. Many have the attitude that the company is bad or greedy. At the same time they go to work and do a very good job and are extemely professional.

BTW, The company does have a corporate train!

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