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Topic: Industry Standards in radio?

Sam Graham
AKA: "The Evil Sam Graham". Wackiness ensues.

Posts: 1431
From: Waukee, IA
Registered: Dec 2004

posted 03-04-2006 10:49 PM

I think radio's problems today have more to do with radio's people being unfamiliar with all the new technology being thrown at them and how to make it all work through all channels (ad agencies, networks, etc.)

I think we'll be into the next decade before they get it all sorted out, but I think radio will ultimately get there.

It doesn't help that the people really in charge of radio always end up being people from the sales force, who generally have no idea how to even program the channels on their car stereo, let alone care about what the product actually sounds like.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 03-05-2006 03:37 AM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Good solid state transmitters are one reason you are hearing all the compression artifacts better than ever.

I don't know... I can't receive WABC worth a darn at night outside of New York. It's like they cut power or something (but I'm sure they're on a clear channel).

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 03-05-2006 09:38 AM

Tim: AM distant reception is going, going, done due to the new "digital" sub carriers. You would hear this as additional noise. So a station on 760 or 780 is sending while noise.

Maybe just as well...can't "sell" outside the immediate area anyway.

Might as well reduce power to 10kw max and get rid of clear channel and Clear Channel.

Thank God for XM! Louis

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 03-05-2006 02:35 PM

I didn't know about this, Louis. That explains a lot. I've noticed many big time stations along my route (WRKO, WBZ, WABC, WINS, et.al.) are long gone just 40 miles down the road at night (although I think RKO does cut power). FWIW, WOR seems to be the best in NY for nighttime signal coverage. WCBS runs a close second.

I had XM in my truck for a long time, but I ended up listening more to local shows so I never renewed it. [Wink]

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 03-07-2006 02:52 PM

quote:
What's really annoying is sometimes their computer-stored version of a song that's in heavy rotation is chopped off before it's actually over. The last 30 seconds or so is cut off and they keep playing it that way. Their explanaion is "It's the computer". Duh, it's not the computer, it's the person who made the MP3 file or whatever the hell it is they play.

I use the same automation they have (Cumulus owns BSI Int'l). The system will segue very nicely, but requires that you set the "sectone" pointer for each file. The cheap & dirty way to do it is just to cut the file where you want the next file to play. That might be what KZEL is doing. I was down there late last year. You're right... they do have a strange sound about them.

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 03-07-2006 09:27 PM

quote: Steve Scott
I'm an XM subscriber & the friend I live with has Sirius, both are great services. XM had some compression issues after its startup. From what I read on the XM forums, it was due to all the new channels they added at once, but it's recovered and still beats the hell out of FM.

On small speakers, both services sound sort of okay, but when you listen on a good system, they both really suck. Take the Left and Right signal and combine them out of phase and you'll hear all the digital artifacts. What you hear sounds uncannily like the sound effects used in movies when they show a satellite orbiting in space. All of the out of phase information (the stereo part of the signal and the stereo echo return) is destroyed.
----
As far as MP3s for radio spots are concerned, what you have to remember is that radio used to use tape cartridges for spots (and many stations used them for music as well). Tape cartridges were notorious for wow, flutter and phase problems. MP3s really are better than tape cartridges were. But overall, I agree: most radio audio is really bad these days.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-08-2006 01:58 AM

Judging by what you guys are saying, I feel a little bit stupid for not knowing better.

But, not knowing what I know now, wouldn't it be right for me to assume that people at a radio station should be able to deal with an '.aiff' file?

After all, they have million dollar equipment. All I have is a 6 year old computer with a crummy 400 MHz processor in it.

If that's the way they are going to run their business, why don't they just take an iPod and plug it into the mixing console? It'd be a whole hell of a lot better quality!

Wait a minute! Why bother with all of the crap? Why don't I just get an iPod for myself!? It's not top quality sound but it's a lot better than I hear on the radio!

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 03-08-2006 09:11 AM

The sound quality on XM sucks. To be fair, I am not getting XM directly, I am getting it though DirecTv, but it is noticably more compressed than the MusicChoice service that it replaced.

On the "Frank's Place" channel, the Saturday & Sunday afternoon show is actually a simalcast of Johnathan Scwartz's long running shows on WNYC-FM in New York City. I can flip back and forth between my 20 year old FM tuner and XM (on DirecTv), and the FM blows away the sound quality of XM.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 03-08-2006 11:07 AM

My XM audio quality experience mirrors those listed above......until I purchased a Polk audio receiver that has much improved d/a converter on it. No comparison.

Apparently "there is a difference." I am told that the car units use technology suitable for headphone outputs while the other unit is "completely different" in the d/a and output stages. Louis

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Steve Scott
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1300
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 03-08-2006 02:52 PM

That doesn't surprise me Louis. I got signed up with XM while working for Best Buy, while Delphi was doing an employee purchase deal (I think it was around $100 for the original Sky-Fi receiver & either a home or car kit), and anytime I ever use the term "good sound quality", I've had to put that on a huge sliding scale for consumers. I sold more receivers when I pitched it as the equivilent of Cable TV for your radio.
Most of them were FM modulating the signal in their cars or using shit receivers at home & never really tried to get a lot of sound out of the things.

But it's soooooo easy to sell digital radio because of that magic qualifing 'D-word'

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 03-08-2006 03:48 PM

Tim, My understanding from the former chief engineer at WSTW FM / WDEL AM, Scotty Moyer, aka W3URR, is that AM stations cut power (or shutdown completely) from sunset to sunrise as per FCC licensing and regs.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 03-08-2006 05:33 PM

Mark, he is right. But not the 50,000 watt stations that Tim mentioned. They never cut. The "digital" B.S. is new. The power cut day/night has been stable since at least before 1939. Louis

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 03-09-2006 06:42 PM

A related saying: Audio people love standards, that's why they have so many of them.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 03-09-2006 11:16 PM

Roger that, Louis. Thanks. [Smile]

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 03-11-2006 10:52 AM

Seems obvious that cramming multiple signals into one stream means compromise somewhere.

The real proof is getting used to the artifacts on Dishnetwork, then switching to the same feed on a C-band system.

On audio: For awhile, a couple of our local FM stations were using a digital STL that made the whole station sound like a low-bitrate MP3. They eventually went to something else, but it surprised me that they used them as long as they did.

Standards? Nope. The FCC got out of that biz when they discovered they could be sued for messing with free enterprise. Anyone remember Motorola/Kahn/Harris/Delco????

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