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Author Topic: A Visit ToThe Union Pacific Steam Shops Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 09-16-2006 10:27 AM                     If you want a collector brass model you might want to look at the early 1990s HO brass by Key Imports that were built by Samhongsa. There were two versions, a $500.00 one and the $1500.00 one. The latter had all the bells and whistles and superdetail (operating sand dome and turrett hatches. operating tender hatches, full cab detail, etc, etc). You might also look at Tenshodo, but these get quite pricy, usually. Just avoid the early 1960s version with the incorrect flat bottom smoke box. The last time PFM imported a Tenshodo Challenger was around 1990. There were 50 pieces in the run and each was individual. Very fine detail including sprung and equalized wheels from the pilot truck to the trailing truck. These came in Walnut presentation boxes and were well over $2K. But throughout the 1990s there have been several imported Big Boys and Challengers from a variety of importers, the models usually being made by either Samhongsa or Ajin (Overland Models), but Samhongsa is usually much higher quality than Ajin. There are real differences between Tenshodo and Samhongsa. While both models are hand built the Tenshodo models were usually done in small Mom/Pop shops. THe Samhongsa models were done in a big factory. The Tenshodo models usually have a more "character" in them. Also, the Tenshodo models tend to be a lot less delicate than the Samhongsa models. You can usually hold a Tenshodo model in your hand w/o worrying about damaging it. The Samhongsa models usually have a lighter gage boiler sheetmetal construction and can be a little bit more delicate to handle. If you wish to superdetail, many of the investment-cast parts that went onto the Tenshodo Big Boys and Challengers were done by Cal-Scale and they have been readily available to the public since the 1960's. Also, one can purchase the old Bowser die-cast Challenger or Big Boy and detail with those Cal Scale parts. For the tender, one usually uses the Revell plastic model kit. Also, one should contact Model Railroader Magazine for the series of articles (The Art of Superdetailing by Bob Darwin) that dates to ~ 1960-1962/3?  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-16-2006 12:26 PM                        Lionel has a new O-guage UP Big Boy that is beautiful:  |  IP: Logged Charles Greenlee Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 801 From: Savannah, Ga, U.S. Registered: Jun 2006 posted 09-16-2006 09:02 PM                        Lionel does some excellet work, regardless of the scale, too bad they decided to go back to doing just the O-guage. My personel fav. engine is my Hornby A4. It's not fancy or extremely expensive, but it is a nice engine. Not to mention, how can you argue with having the worlds fastest steam loco in your set. I need to get it a DCC and sound module, and drop it in.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 09-16-2006 10:04 PM                     There has been a notorius on-going legal battle between Lionel and Mikes Train House.  |  IP: Logged Charles Greenlee Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 801 From: Savannah, Ga, U.S. Registered: Jun 2006 posted 09-17-2006 01:36 PM                        I didn't know that. What's it about?  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 09-17-2006 09:49 PM                     The battle has been ongoing, but Lionel lost. Both companies had products made by Korean manufacturers (Samhongsa, Korea Brass). Turns out that employees of one manufacturer stole blueprints and sold to the competitor which was subsequently used to manufacturer a Lionel product.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Jonsson Expert Film Handler Posts: 216 From: Bromolla, Sweden Registered: Sep 2003 posted 09-18-2006 03:03 PM                       Thank you very much for the info. Helped me to find other links, almost without end... I didn´t realize there were so many manufacturers of the G and 1 scale, both electric and live steam. You really have to control yourself, not to ruin your economy on those beautiful models! Thomas  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 09-18-2006 03:43 PM                     The era of the imported brass model is comming to an end. Samhongsa quit production and there are only a very few importers left. There is a forum for brass model enthusiasts: www.brassbackshop.com The reasons for the demise of brass are many: The Japenese and Koreans have their own ways of doing business and are usually difficult to deal with. They have adamantly refused to supply importers with such things as spare parts for customer repairs and for those modelers who would like a model in kit for...FORGET IT...let alone those wanting to get parts to redetail or scratch build their own models!! A major attitude in model railroading circles is that people (customers) are just interested in RTR and that there is no-one left in the hobby interested in scratch-building or superdetailing. If this is the case, then why is the area of generic plastic modeling and other forms of modeling and desk-top machine tool manufacturers like Sherline exploding??? In my humble opinion, the attitude in model railroading circles is really screwd up and ass-backwards! In the area of newer rtr(plastic) model locomotives the detail is quite excellent and in some cases rivals brass models at a fraction of the cost. But what some people do not understand is that in many cases the tooling used to produce these new plastic models can also be used for the creation of wax models for investment (lost-wax) casting for the construction of brass models. And brass models contain every form of metal work known (chemical milling w/sheet-metal forming) casting and die-stamping (coining and machining...not to mention soldering, die and fixture building, etc.  |  IP: Logged Thomas Jonsson Expert Film Handler Posts: 216 From: Bromolla, Sweden Registered: Sep 2003 posted 09-19-2006 12:22 PM                       I´m not actually looking for brass models, rather a large scale model of a handsome machine, like the die cast models of the Big Boy or Hudson from USA trains. But what looks great on a photo, might perhaps not look quite as good in real life. That´s why I was curious if anyone had seen any of those models "live". Thomas  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 11-02-2006 10:06 PM                     The other night I watched the classic Sinatra, Novak, Hayworth film "Pal Joey". The opening scene involves a SP GS-4 Daylight locomotive. The numberboard is clearly depicted...I forgot the number, but it was just a few numbers ahead of our beloved 4449. I think it was 4445 or 4446? The locomotive is in its post-war state, painted solid black (no longer bearing Daylight colors) and the famous skirting was removed. Thomas...if you want a nice "Challenger" in kit form you can buy the old Bowser Challenger model. You can then detail with the Cal-Scale Challenger/Big Boy parts that are still marketed by Cal Scale and were originally used on the famed Tenshodo models. Those castings are quite nice. Most of those parts came from injection molding tooling. Famed modeler Bob Darwin made most of the patterns and were featured in his now famous articles from the early 1960's "The Art of Superdetailing" which appeared in Model Railroader magazine. Unfortunately Bowser never did have a tender for their Challenger or Big Boy models...so most people used the tender from the old Revell Big Boy plastic kit. Of course if you are a real detail nut the Bowser Challenger is not right for you as it is "rough" and has some incorrect detail. But if you want a nice hefty model that you can build and detail...and that will haul an impressive load on the layout, then it can be a good model. Cheers Kutler  |  IP: Logged Thomas Jonsson Expert Film Handler Posts: 216 From: Bromolla, Sweden Registered: Sep 2003 posted 11-05-2006 03:08 PM                       Many thanks, Will! I´ll see if I can find it on the internet, to see what model you mean. Right now I´m considering an "insider model" from Marklin (Germany). It´s a German express steamer, very detailed and nice looking, model nr 55900 gauge 1. Thomas  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 11-07-2006 07:39 PM                     Here is a link to the Bowser Big Boy/Challenger models. The tooling for these models is probably about 50 years old or so. These are die-cast and the Big Boy was created by modifying the original Challenger tooling and extending the firebox. http://www.bowser-trains.com/holocos/challenger/challenger.htm The Bowser kit comes without all the brass parts...which are available as a seperate kit. All of these brass parts were used on the famed PFM/Tenshodo models and were made by Cal Scale, who was originally concieved (along with PIA) to produce investment castings for the imported brass model. Bowser/Cal Scale are under same ownership. One glaring error of this model is the incorrect flat smoke box bottom. Their competitor, Precision Scale Company (PSC), has a Big Boy/Challenger cab detail kit. Unlike Cal-Scale/Bowser PSC does not have their catalogs on-line (you need to order and pay for them). I was looking at a few of the plastic HO Big Boy models at a local hobby shop this past weekend. One was Athern and I forgot the other...but it was around $800.00. Both models were nice, but for an extra $400.00 I'd save up and find the brass Big Boy or Challenger model, built by Samhongsa for Key Imports 1994-1995 or thereabouts. There were two versions of the model..a $500.00 "Plain-Jane" and the expensive model with all the fine, working detail. Beware of the late 1950's Tenshodo models...some are dirt cheap due to the incorrect flat smoke box bottom like the Bowser die-cast models. The model that Bob Darwin detailed in his famous articles was the 1960-1961 Tenshodo Challenger/Big Boy. Some of the detail work that he did on that model rivals some of the expensive detail on newer $2000.00 models. Cheers Kutler  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-01-2007 04:16 PM                     There is another really good video avaialble of the 3985 as part of a package of 4 DVD's on trains. This package is available from Costco no less. Look for "Train's Spectaculuar"... I got my set for $14.99. Highly reccomemded. The picture quality of this DVD is actually superior to the DVD that you can buy from Union PAcific! Mark  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-01-2007 06:11 PM                        quote: Will Kutler The battle has been ongoing, but Lionel lost. Both companies had products made by Korean manufacturers (Samhongsa, Korea Brass). Turns out that employees of one manufacturer stole blueprints and sold to the competitor which was subsequently used to manufacturer a Lionel product. Actually this isn't over yet. MTH did win a judgement against Lionel (for some $40 million) but Lionel is appealing and a decision is expected later this year.  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 02-01-2007 11:09 PM                     From my understanding, MTH is sue happy and is involved in litigation with one or more importers besides Lionel. From knowing the brass hobby for many years, one thing is certain: Cal Scale (PIA) and PSC castings and parts, not to mention those castings and parts made by Samhongsa, OCS, etc have been used on sooo many models over sooo many decades! Several years ago I was at the NMRA Nationals at Long Beach, CA. Of course several of the brass importers where present. And generally speaking Samhongsa was the major builder for all the importers. And you guessed it. You could look at models from the various importers and literally see and identify what detail castings were common to all models! Cheers K  |  IP: Logged

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