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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Digital Projection on NPR (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Digital Projection on NPR
Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

- posted 03-24-2007 02:24 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cameron why do you make a point to say that FilmGuard is not Kodak approved but PTR rollers are? Screw Kodak. They make great film stocks, but don't look to what they approve and what they don't as a guideline for what should be done to keep prints looking good. They are film stock gods, not projection booth gods. It sounds like you know that, though. I'm no salesman, but I don't think a Kodak endorsement would result in a huge boom in sales for FilmGuard. You'd still have to get around the people who are in charge of purchasing who think "We've never used this stuff before and everything looks fine to me and I don't want to spend more money because I am a great manager and I like to keep my spending low".

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

- posted 03-24-2007 11:27 AM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Cameron Glendinning
Is your cinema in the photos section?
No, but our web site is in my profile.

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000

- posted 03-24-2007 02:22 PM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If a theatre wont spend money to change Xenon lamps regularly in thier 35mm machines why do you think they will spend the money to change them in thier DLP machines more often?

If a theatre doesnt clean thier lenses and port windows regularly now why do you think they will do it when they install DLP?

If a theatre has poor sound now, underpowered amplifiers and innapropriate loud speakers do you think they will replace them all for DLP?

A theatre that has a bad on screen presentation with 35mm film will have bad on screen presentation with DLP. If people want a better experience and a better higher reslution image why dont they install all 70mm machines and print all releases in 70mm? That would provide a better image, and better resolutiond. Unfortunately the same issues noted above would still be there. The only way to fix this industry is to spend money on proper repair and maintenance, and hire qualified caring staff to operate the equipment.

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Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001

- posted 03-24-2007 02:40 PM      Profile for Christian Appelt   Email Christian Appelt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sean is right. This is the blind spot of most "film vs digital" discussions, and for a good reason: Why should theatres/chains that do not care about presentation quality and maintenance of equipment behave different when it comes to digital?

I am afraid that it might in fact become worse: If an underpaid projectionist creates damage, it will remain unless the show has to be cancelled. A film print can be replaced, a worn print will be gone in a few weeks, the next movie is a new print. A new chip will cost thousands of dollars to replace, even if prices come down a bit.

The element that carries the picture is replaced every time a new movie arrives. With digital, I will not be surprised to see "fried" chips with discolourings and other defects - why should people who cannot detect a flickering xenon bulb or adjust lamphouse settings be alarmed when the cooling system does not work properly any more.

Some people will say the equipment can be made foolproof. I never saw a piece of foolproof equipment because fools (especially underpaid fools) are so inventive. So instead of seeing platter scratches one week and a new print the next week, I will see the same faults until the whole thing breaks down and no tickets can be sold.

Despite all complaints about presentation problems, I must say that during the last ten years I had to complain less and less about dirt and scratches in standard multiplex theatres around here, I suppose because most new booths are air conditioned and kept clean (compared with most old style booths). Print quality is what brings 35mm presentations down (lack of sharpness and steadiness), not dirt & scratches.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 03-24-2007 04:51 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When it comes to DLP chips, the biggest threat to them is dead pixels. If you get a dead pixel, it's going to be an obvious black dot on the screen, or one of the three primary colors (red, green or blue) stuck in the "on" position.

On film projection, there's a number of variables involved. Print quality is one. IMHO, the adoption of 2K digital intermediate methods on the part of many film productions has degraded 35mm print quality down from its best possible levels. The image quality can be only so good when it merely has 2048 X 858 or 1998 X 1080 pixels of native detail from which to work.

The make of film projector and the kind of lenses used is another highly critical factor. Cheap lenses aren't going to throw a very good image onto the screen. A cheap projector isn't going to control image steadiness and fight problems like picketing and sideweave nearly as well as a good quality projector.

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Mike Heenan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1896
From: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

- posted 03-24-2007 06:36 PM      Profile for Mike Heenan   Email Mike Heenan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cameron sez
quote: Cameron Glendinning
umm Digital will never be scratched, dirty, projected out of frame, wear out and consistant even light output. Cinema maintainance of the bio box would be cleaning the ports and lens only. umm sounds better to me than ex mcdonalds staff working with 35mm.
Umm, if ex Mcdonalds staff did all that to 35mm, then how do you expect them to graduate to A+ level with digital? If they treat their film setup like shit, chances are they'll do the same with digital, and while there'll be no scratches or dirt, there could be other problems.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

- posted 03-24-2007 07:52 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's right, xenons will NEVER get dim in digital projectors. They will be consistent at all times every time no matter what.

Cameron... ah never mind.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 03-24-2007 08:04 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't most digital installations come with a maintenance agreement that would replace a worn-out bulb? That seems like a no brainer to insist on.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 03-24-2007 08:51 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christie and AccessIT have such a maintenance agreement on their Carmike installations.

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Christian Appelt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 505
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Registered: Dec 2001

- posted 03-25-2007 08:58 AM      Profile for Christian Appelt   Email Christian Appelt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder if some many nice looking business & service models will be available after enough people have trashed their 35mm equipment. As soon as theatres have no alternative any more and distributors have reached their goal of saving money on prints & shipping, they need no way to encourage theatres any more, and the actual cost of keeping the show running will become visible.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 03-25-2007 01:13 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In Carmike's case many of their theaters don't have the 35mm equipment "trashed." The old projectors and consoles are typically left up in the booth. It's at least physically possible for theaters to get converted back to film projection (where the film projection was not left intact). Why Carmike hasn't tried to sell a lot of the old, unused equipment, I don't know. It would certainly seem like they could get some decent money for all those DTS and Dolby Digital processors they're no longer using.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

- posted 03-25-2007 07:10 PM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Cameron Glendinning
Mark, 1/ How many candy bar operators clean their ports and lenses twice weekly? Just because film has potential for greater contrast does not mean that majority of the audience actually sees it.
Sooo... they will be cleaned more often with digital projectors? The ones that do clean their ports and lenses on a regular basis will actually LOSE contrast on their presentations. The ones who don't... will also lose contrast, just not as much.

quote: Cameron Glendinning
The word practically, if it was in digital it would have left your theatre in exactly the same condition.
Not to quibble, but if it was digital it wouldn't have left our theater at all. It would have been deleted. And I said "practically" because it left with splices on the heads and tails. Other than that, it was in the same pristine shape it was in when we received it.

quote: Cameron Glendinning
Do you think that that happened at all the cinemas that ran that film?
It absolutely did not. But this idea that it's ok to lower *MY* presentation and make *MY* audiences' experience a little bit worse just because the retards down the street don't know how to put on a good show is somewhat offensive to me.

Maybe what Hollywood should have done is stop sending movies to theaters with sub-par presentations. Or maybe they should have just threatened to. Maybe that would have fixed everything.

I wonder... would it have been cheaper to install brand new 35mm projectors in every theater in the country? That would have temporarily solved the bad presentation problem the same way that the brand new digital projectors are going to temporarily solve it. But then at least those of us that care, but don't always have the backing of our corporate bean counters, would have gotten a presentation upgrade instead of a downgrade.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 03-26-2007 08:37 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know on the Barco projectors it is possible to have constant light output throughout the life of the lamp. It can constantly make adjustments to the lamp current (and keep it within its range) to ensure that once set, it will keep it there.

This could be done with film projectors though it would be somewhat harder.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 03-26-2007 11:56 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, but what happens when the service life of the lamp is effectively over? As things are, many theatres routinely run their lamps to double or even triple the manufacturer's recommended hours, rotating the bulb and adjusting the current to get every last hour out of them. In some of the less reputable venues I could mention, the thing has to either (i) blow up, or (ii) be flickering like a demented candle before they're willing to replace it. Presumably the computer controlled adjustment systems in the lamphouses of digital projectors incorporate an hour counter, and after its burnt the guaranteed hours (or some set interval programmed into the firmware), will simply refuse to strike and generate a fault code until the lamp is replaced. Even if this is overridden then presumably no further adjustments will be made, as the software won't be programmed with how to nurse a lamp through an extra few hundred hours.

So will this mean that the transition to digital will result in better illumination in the average theatre, or will operators find ways of circumventing automatic lamp adjustment systems and carry on running their bulbs into the ground as before?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 03-26-2007 03:45 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The service contracts usually include routine lamp replacement, and I think it works to prevent any management from trying to use a lamp well past its recommended life span.

Regardless of whether a movie theater has digital or film projection, a greater level of quality control is definitely needed, more than what I think most theater chains have been providing for the past several years or so. Some of that greater attention on maintenance is happening with digital projection installations due to the nature of the service contracts on that complicated, expensive equipment.

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