|
|
This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
|
|
Author
|
Topic: my trailer for Desperado
|
|
|
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 04-15-2007 01:44 AM
quote: Mike Schindler
Also, how are my arguments circular?
Because you keep asking questions that have already been answered and even answered repeatedly. I don't feel like repeating myself many times to get you to absorb a point. That doesn't just go for this thread either. You've been needlessly second guessing a bunch of my comments in other threads as well.
quote: Mike Schindler
You say you're firm in your point of view, but when you try to defend it, it becomes clear that you're either not understanding what it is I'm trying to say, or being intentionally vague.
Mike, I have been PERFECTLY CLEAR. I am not going to write a 1000 page dissertation defending my point of view to you when you simply cannot seem to comprehend some very clear points I have already made all the way back in my first post within this thread. I've written enough. If you can't figure it out then that's your problem. I'm done discussing this with you.
quote: Mark Strube
Second time now, so listen really carefully. I never called my trailers art, and openly admit to them being far from perfect. I was referring to trailer editing as a whole being an art - in fact I even specified some less than others.
Mark, Mike Schindler is the one insisting your trailer remakes are "art." I'm not going along with that.
I'm glad you're having fun working on those trailer re-makes. But they don't serve much of any other purpose other than you experimenting with previously filmed footage.
quote: Mark Strube
I really am not very interested in explaining WHY I like to do these trailers... your argument, overall, is that since it's not from an "unseen" work, and since it reminds you so much of other action trailers (which I consider an achievement), it's pointless. That affects me how? You're not going to instantly change what I like to do in my spare time, or how good I feel when I've finished a nice edit.
Don't post it if you're not prepared to hear what people have to say about it. And the broad purpose of you cutting trailers of movies that already had trailers anyway is going to come into question. If you want to keep doing that kind of thing and asking for feedback, then you better get used to the kind of comments I made because I guarantee you will get more of them.
quote: Mark Strube
How about instead of wasting your time critiquing the reasons I'm doing this in the first place, spend some time on telling me what you would've done differently, what you like to see in trailer edits, how you think a particular edit should've been done. If you would've done nothing at all in the first place, just go on and post that, and be on your merry. Actually add something useful to the conversation instead of just belittling my hobby.
The thing I would tell you to do differently is shoot some of your own footage. Videotape and edit your own story rather than wasting your time trying to flatter the ideas of others. Robert Rodriquez and Dimension Films aren't going to give you anything for your work in coming up with a different trailer for Desperado.
Try making something that is actually your own creative vision rather than spending lots of time re-purposing the work of others.
Take a look at some of the stuff Joe Redifer has created. His videos don't have a cost is no object production value to them. But many of them are funny, entertaining and more memorable than a lot of movie trailer shit I see. He's putting his own ideas to work and that's just more interesting.
When I am creating illustrations or graphic designs, the last thing in the world I am ever going to do is re-use artwork from someone else. Screw those guys! I am going to show off my ideas, not theirs! Why the hell should they benefit from my talents and work, especially if I'm not even going to get paid for it?
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Strube
Master Film Handler
Posts: 322
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 04-15-2007 01:55 AM
That last segment of your reply really accentuates your completely different outlook on this. (Because I can't make money on it from Dimension? That would be cool, but very few personal hobbies involve making money.) But again, you've either missed my point or ignored it. Cutting together my version of a trailer for an existing movie is a completely different activity from shooting one's own short film, and then editing that. Instead of giving me worthwhile feedback on this activity, you insist on imposing your opinion that I shouldn't be doing this in the first place, and that it has no worth or point to it. (I completely disagree with that, but I digress.) So what? It's a hobby right now. If it ever becomes more than that, I'll already have a great knowledge of various editing software, and some stuff I've cut to show that I'm competent in that software. If you're so offended by what I'm doing, just don't visit my threads related to it anymore, instead of annoying the crap out of me saying how it's such a waste of time. What is a "good use of one's time," along with art, is extremely subjective. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mark Strube
Master Film Handler
Posts: 322
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 04-15-2007 02:28 AM
I'll try to simplify this as much as possible. Not all hobbies are very creative, if at all. My cutting of trailers happens to take some creativity, along with knowledge of various software. Now just because it happens to coincide with something that others choose to do for business purposes, or for editing their own movies, that makes it absolutely pointless and a waste of time just to do as a personal hobby? You are really just full of preconceived notions about what's "pointless" and what's not... that's fine, but please don't try to somehow make it seem as though your opinion on the matter is more valid than mine. It's really not since you apparently can't see this from my perspective, and no amount of debating on here is going to convince me otherwise. So, really, you could save us all some trouble and typing... just lay off, and let me have my fun little pointless hobby. Because you know what else is absolutely pointless? Debating this with me.
Now, I'm going to get some sleep. I'm sure I'll wake up to either a locked thread, or 10 trollish responses by Frank about how he's really not a troll, and how he despises labels. Troll Pride! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002
|
posted 04-15-2007 10:37 AM
quote: Bobby Henderson
Because you keep asking questions that have already been answered and even answered repeatedly.
Alright. Let's look at those.
quote: Bobby Henderson
you're farting around with someone else's creative work and doing so without any kind of purpose. It's essentially creative masturbation without actually being creative.
quote: Mike Schindler
How is it not being creative?
quote: Bobby Henderson
Simply put, that movie is not your creation. It's somebody else's idea and finished work.
Now, that is the same response you gave before. But it still doesn't answer my question. The point I was trying to make, which you seem to have missed, is that editors don't create footage. They create cuts. The creation of the footage is irrelevant to the creation of the cut. I'm willing to accept your statement, because it's true. But my question is still unanswered. Let's continue.
quote: Mike Schindler
Was the original trailer cutter or poster designer not being creative?
quote: Bobby Henderson
In light of the average quality of today's movie trailers, no, I can't say that guy is actually being very creative. But creating a new movie trailer can be a creative endeavor. Some trailers have footage that is newly created for just that trailer.
I should have picked up on this response and run with it because it seems to get at the heart of our debate. If there was an answer to my questions that I didn't pick up on, it's here. You don't consider editing to be a creative endeavor. That would've fast-forwarded the debate to the actor's reel analogy, but I missed it, and decided to pursue a more direct route.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Simply put, that movie is not your creation. It's somebody else's idea and finished work.
quote: Mike Schindler
Yes, but the trailer you are creating is a new work. That finished movie is the equivalent of the raw footage you receive as the editor of a movie.
In light of what I now see, I can see how this would look circular. You've already inferred that it doesn't matter, because the editors don't create.
quote: Bobby Henderson
No, it isn't.
Here's a case of misunderstanding. I thought you were referring to my second statement. But you must have been referring to my first. If that's the case, in light of what I now know, it makes sense, because you seem to consider raw footage to be the "work," and editing to be merely an assembly of that work. But either way it doesn't matter because my next question was based on your response being to my second statement.
quote: Mike Schindler
How is it not? That seems like a pretty direct correlation to me.
But if you were actually referring to my first statement, then this question would seem circular, which is why this response now makes sense:
quote: Bobby Henderson
I already explaned those differences earlier.
Then, of course, my next response would make no sense, because at this point, we're talking about two different things. So let me pose a new response to you now.
How is editing not being creative? That makes absolutely no sense. And before you accuse me of being circular, please note that this question hasn't been asked, and I get that "editors don't create raw footage." But this is like saying, "Painters aren't creative, but people who make paint are." And I know you're going to say that that analogy is ridiculous, but that's my point. To say that editors don't create is ridiculous.
And if I am misinterpreting you now, and you weren't trying to say that editing is not creative, then none of my questions were circular, because many of them are still unanswered. And I looked for those answers in your first post, but all I could find was your rant about how much trailers suck.
So I'm missing something, one way or the other. What is it?
And in regards to the other threads which I assume you're referring to. I wasn't the only person to bring up those points, so don't you think that adds some validity to them?
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 04-15-2007 01:00 PM
quote: Anslem Rayburn
If merely presenting footage is an art form, then how is taking that same footage and making it into your style less of an art form?
Because there isn't any "style" present in the finished product. If Mark didn't put his own graphic at the front of that piece there would no clue as to what sets that sort of thing apart from the real, legitimate trailers. Nothing different is being done with the work, no comment, no satire of the subject matter, nothing. It's just a plain movie trailer using editing techniques I've seen thousands of times already.
Tim's Citizen Kane trailer actually had a comedy angle to it in making fun of the stupid stingers we see all the time. There was at least some point to it being communicated. I thought it was funny. And he even used Trajan in the type to get under my skin. Sure, it didn't require anywhere near the effort that Mark put into his Desperado trailer. But I don't know what the hell Mark is trying to do other than create just another Desperado movie trailer. What's the point in doing that?
quote: Anslem Rayburn
Is taking a pre-existing font and using it to create an unique sign not art?
If all you're doing is taking type and fitting it into a box then, no, it isn't art at all.
Most signs in general look like crap. A great deal of people designing signs don't have the talent and design sense to do an effective job. And that's pretty bad considering many of those works stand visible to the public for many years.
Some of the signs with plain type are effective as on premise advertising for a business. But even if the pre-existing type is handled competently it's still only "craft" and not "art."
Some sign designs transcend the levels of bullshit hackdom and effective craft and achieve "art" status. If the sign uses a variety of materials in a personalized way, uses original custom designed type, uses custom illustrational elements or new icons and brings everything together into an attractive and effective display then it would stand a much better chance of qualifying as a piece of "art" then many of the stark, font murdered displays you see alongside so many of America's roadways. If that sign is the only one of its kind, then it has an even better chance of qualifying as a piece of art.
Certain elements in sign manufacturing can be argued as a form of art, such as making neon. Neon glass must be carefully heated and bent by hand to conform to patterns. It definitely takes a very careful, musician's quality touch to be any good at it. However lots of serious neon tube benders will blow their own glass, make different shapes out of the glass and work it into sculptural works that have nothing to do with signs. Those items are a lot more close to qualifying as "art," especially if the finished project is a one of a kind thing and not something that has been produced repeatedly.
What this comes down to is some people use the word "art" very loosely. I don't. There's a lot of stuff that I do in my own day job that isn't "art" at all. Even if it's well done it still isn't "art" it's just "craft." At least there's a purpose behind it to help a business bring in customers. But that's all it's meant to do.
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays
Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999
|
posted 04-15-2007 01:14 PM
quote: Mark Strube
Instead of giving me worthwhile feedback on this activity, you insist on imposing your opinion
Mark, feedback is completely based on opinion. And you did, after all, ask to know what people thought. I only asked why, because I fail to see what anyone can get out of this. But that is just me; there is a lot today that I "don't get".
Six years ago, we spent $50,000 remastering intermission clocks and other screen advertising for drive-in theatres. That was very satisfying work and involved a lot of invention and creative problem-solving but, even though I love those films probably more than anyone on the planet, at its heart, it was a commercial venture. There was a direction. While I enjoyed the two years of work it required, and greatly expanded my 35mm production experience in the process, I can't imagine the point in doing any of it just to pass the time.
Obviously, you can do whatever makes you happy, to each his own, but you did ask. FWIW, SVA is a pretty darned prestigious institution, and a degree from there carries a lot of weight. quote: Bobby Henderson
he even used Trajan in the type to get under my skin.
![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif) quote: Bobby Henderson
Take a look at some of the stuff Joe Redifer has created... many of them are funny, entertaining and more memorable than a lot
Agreed. Joe is very brilliant -- and ORIGINAL. ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
|
This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
|
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2
The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion
and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.
|
Home
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[bs]](graemlins/bs.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic