Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cop in Noble, OK tries to shoot snake, kills 5 year old boy instead

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Topic: Cop in Noble, OK tries to shoot snake, kills 5 year old boy instead

James Westbrook
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1133
From: Lubbock, Texas, Usa
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 08-08-2007 11:48 PM

Bobby mentioning the animal cruelty-for-fun macho crap that backfires reminds me of an urban legend where these dumbass guys decided to strap on an explosive device of some sort onto a jack rabbit so they could gleefully watch it explode...only to watch said jack rabbit hop beneath their fully loaded 4-wheel-drive vehicle just before detonation... [Smile]

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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 08-09-2007 03:40 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
They got a boy killed as a result of just wanting to get off on killing something. Simple as that.

I'm not sure it is as simple as that. I do not know the officers involved, so I hesitate to assume what their mindset was, but based on what was reported you can almost see how this played out.
Picture it. You get a call from panicky residents claiming a rattle snake is too close for comfort. Your small community has no animal control experts. You, the cop, respond because cops are expected to take care of whatever little problem people are not wanting to deal with themselves. You do not have the option of just leaving the snake there, which would seriously piss off the people that called it in. You don't know what kind of snake it is, but the people responsible for calling it in swear its something dangerous. Bludgeoning the thing to death with a rake, bat, or whatever else would leave a mess, ruin the bird house and probably have some animal rights activist calling the mayor, plus if you miss you could end up making it mad and getting attacked. You decide to shoot it. You succeed in killing the pest, but in the process odds are defied and a horrible accident leaves an innocent boy dead. You end up getting called names and ridiculed by people that only read a few snips in an article.

OK, so I'm taking a few liberties with this, but I hope you get the point. A mistake was made, but I think it is irresponsible to accuse someone of "macho idiocy and the need to have fun shooting guns". I have a few more details that I would like before I pass judgement. Are officers in this area required to go through snake identification when they go through the academy? What bullets was the officer shooting? How many shots in total were fired and how many officers took a shot? What type of area was this?

Obviously the shooter(s) screwed up by not thoroughly checking his background and should be disciplined appropriately, I just think in general a person should be afforded the benefit of the doubt and not be bashed until everything is known.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-11-2007 06:28 PM

And just in time to round out this story and thread....

Link
WA man bitten by severed rattlesnake head

10:55 AM PDT on Thursday, August 9, 2007

Associated Press

PROSSER, Wash. (AP) -- A man was bitten by the decapitated head of a rattlesnake on his property near Prosser.

Fifty-three-year-old Danny Anderson and his son saw the five-foot snake Monday evening while feeding horses. They pinned it with a pipe and cut off its head with a shovel.

File Photo

Western rattlesnake

When Anderson reached down to pick it up he says the snake head twisted around and bit his index finger. He says if felt like his hand was in a fire pit.

In the ten minutes it took to reach Prosser Memorial Hospital the venom spread through his body and his tongue had already started to swell. He was treated with shots at the hospital and at Kadlec Medical Center in Richland.

State Fish and Wildlife Department biologist Mike Livingston says it's possible the snake had the heat-sensing ability to make one last attack or it may have been a reflex.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-12-2007 12:46 AM

Severed snake heads can still bite. That's fairly common knowledge. Stupid mistake on the part of the bite victim. I'll bet when they get all those big medical bills for emergency treatment they'll wish they would have just left the damned snake alone.

Just because a snake is seen doesn't mean it has to be killed.

quote: Chad Souder
You do not have the option of just leaving the snake there, which would seriously piss off the people that called it in.

Bullshit. A cop does have the latitude to tell people "tough shit." The police didn't have to take very risky chances to satisfy the whims of some candy-ass home owner.

quote: Chad Souder
You don't know what kind of snake it is

It was still daylight at the time of the shooting. The visual differences between a black rat snake and venomous snakes like rattlers and copperheads are very obvious. Cottonmouths aren't found that far north either (and stay secluded in areas of very dense brush near to rivers and lakes).

Even if a King Cobra was climbing up that bird house, the cop would have been stupid to take chances shooting at it.

quote: Chad Souder
Bludgeoning the thing to death with a rake, bat, or whatever else would leave a mess, ruin the bird house and probably have some animal rights activist calling the mayor, plus if you miss you could end up making it mad and getting attacked.

Snakes are easy to kill. Anything from shovels to CO2 fire extinguishers can do the trick.

Your animal rights activist comment doesn't make a damned bit of sense. If they're going to get pissed off, they're going to get pissed off regardless of the method used in killing the animal. By choosing to shoot the thing, and killing a boy as a result, the cops pissed off a much greater percentage of the population. Great job!

And that theory of getting the snake mad and it attacking is just stupid bullshit. Do you think the snake is going to leap out of the birdhouse can outrun everybody and bite them? Hell, the Black Mamba in Africa is much faster and far more aggressive and deadly than any North American snake, but it cannot outrun any person.

quote: Chad Souder
You decide to shoot it. You succeed in killing the pest, but in the process odds are defied and a horrible accident leaves an innocent boy dead. You end up getting called names and ridiculed by people that only read a few snips in an article.

Oh please piss off with that trolling Devil's advocate nonsense.

Police officers are trained to draw their weapons and fire them ONLY when a person's life is in immediate danger. No person's life was in any danger at all in this situation. Yet the police chose to fire anyway. They killed a 5-year old boy as a result.

quote: Chad Souder
Obviously the shooter(s) screwed up by not thoroughly checking his background and should be disciplined appropriately, I just think in general a person should be afforded the benefit of the doubt and not be bashed until everything is known.

I participate in a handgun related forum whose membership features a lot of cops. The opinion there is unanimous: the idiot policeman who fired the gun ought to be brought up on charges of negligent homicide and the family of the shooting victim has one hell of a case for a wrongful death lawsuit.

Here's another angle to view this tragedy: what if it was the candy-ass home owner who tried shooting the snake but killed the little boy instead? I'll tell you what. His ass would be in jail right now. He would be awaiting arraignment on charges of manslaughter or worse.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 08-12-2007 05:11 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
It was still daylight at the time of the shooting. The visual differences between a black rat snake and venomous snakes like rattlers and copperheads are very obvious. Cottonmouths aren't found that far north either (and stay secluded in areas of very dense brush near to rivers and lakes).

May be obvious to you, but certainly wouldn't be to me; I've never even seen a snake outside of a zoo, or the girl who brought her pet one to primary school to show us, about 40 years ago. Why should the police officer be an expert on snakes?

Stay away from the thing and get somebody who knows about snakes to deal with it, not the police.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-12-2007 12:24 PM

Even if the cop didn't know what kind of snake he was dealing with, or not know much of anything at all about snakes, that's not an excuse that can be defended.

The fact remains that police officers (and anyone else for that matter) can only draw and fire a handgun when a person's life is in immediate danger. Cops know that. You take a grave chance of shooting someone else when firing a gun outside of a gun range or well defined hunting area (and even accidents happen in those places). Guns should never be used lightly, such as the case of satisfying the whims of some home owner afraid of snakes.

The cop chose to draw and fire in a situation that was not life threatening. He chose to draw and fire in a mere nuisance situation. He found out the hard way just why guns should only be used in the most dangerous of situations.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-12-2007 12:33 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
the family of the shooting victim has one hell of a case for a wrongful death lawsuit.

That's true, and that might open up another whole can of worms. The family will sue for (and probably get) millions of dollars, which is just ridiculous. While you can't put a price on a human life, turning those people into millionaires at the expense of the taxpayers out of sympathy would be wrong too.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 08-12-2007 08:23 PM

Americans love to sue. Seriously, it's the only thing we know how to do.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-13-2007 01:03 AM

quote: Mike Blakesley
The family will sue for (and probably get) millions of dollars, which is just ridiculous.

???

Exactly how is that ridiculous?

If this family has no right to sue over what happened then no one has any right to sue anyone anywhere.

We can all just go around firing guns like fuck-tards and to hell with who catches any of the stray rounds. Your wife or son got killed by a stray round? Get over it! Hah! Concepts like "accountability" are for pussies!

The truly ridiculous thing that will likely happen is this trigger happy idiot of a cop will walk. He'll hide behind his badge and his department will help.

Here in Lawton a cop was recently acquitted of murder. He shot an unarmed man several times in the back. The guy simply tried to run away from a DUI stop. He didn't try to fight with the cop or anything. The entire event was caught on videotape. Nevertheless, the jury let the cop walk. I personally know a number law enforcement officers who feel that psycho should have been locked behind bars.

On top of that, the town of Noble, OK isn't exactly rich. So the family probably isn't going to be able to cash in for millions of dollars even though they are clearly justified in doing so.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 08-13-2007 09:22 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
Exactly how is that ridiculous?

If this family has no right to sue over what happened then no one has any right to sue anyone anywhere.

Don't you ever read a whole post before shooting off a response?

The ridiculous part is that the people will sue for millions of dollars. I never said they shouldn't be able to sue at all. But if they were never going to be millionaires in the first place, and if "no amount of money will ever replace the loss of a child," then they should be limited to suing for a modest amount rather than the taxpayers having to dip into their pockets for the next 20 years to give them a life of luxury they never would have had otherwise.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-13-2007 10:09 AM

quote: Mike Blakesley
I never said they shouldn't be able to sue at all.

That's how it would effectively work if they weren't able to sue for a seven figure sum. The legal costs on this type of case would not be cheap. The Noble, OK police department was trying to cover its ass from square one, so you know they're not going to be looking to make a deal with this family out of court.

quote: Mike Blakesley
they should be limited to suing for a modest amount rather than the taxpayers having to dip into their pockets for the next 20 years to give them a life of luxury they never would have had otherwise.

What is a fair "modest" amount of money to make things right for shooting a 5 year old boy in the head through a shamefully stupid act of negligence? Will a $50 bill cover it?

That "otherwise" term can certainly be turned around 180 degrees. That family doesn't need a boost of income they wouldn't have had otherwise? Well, I'm sure they would be thrilled to keep it that way if the police can give back their 5-year old boy who would otherwise be alive if it weren't for some idiot ignoring a fundamental rule of police training involving handgun use.

Parties hurt in an act of negligence deserve to be made "whole." Since it's impossible to bring this boy back to life, his family certainly deserves to sue for every penny they can get. We're not talking about some hot McDonalds coffee spilled in someone's lap. This is something much more serious.

The sad thing is they won't get much money, if anything at all. That should put away any worries that a group of people, no matter how tragically victimized, might possibly get something that could strangely be characterized as welfare.

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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 08-13-2007 01:04 PM

Maybe you should curse more in your posts. That would surely increase the validity of your statements.

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James Westbrook
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1133
From: Lubbock, Texas, Usa
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 08-13-2007 01:21 PM

Back to the ligitation aspect...
I'm afraid the ATTORNEY that this family hires will likely get a sizeable chunk of the settlement (and the county/city's insurance company will likely try to settle first).
I could be wrong...
are there any updates on this case? Is the cop stripped of his duties? Has he been forced to resign yet?
Is the fix in?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-13-2007 01:42 PM

quote: Chad Souder
Maybe you should curse more in your posts. That would surely increase the validity of your statements.

The profanity is irrelevant. However, if you have any problem with the heat of the flames, don't take the side of the idiot cop who had no excuse at all in drawing and discharging his weapon. There is no defense for such a reckless act of lunacy.

quote: James Westbrook
...are there any updates on this case? Is the cop stripped of his duties? Has he been forced to resign yet? Is the fix in?

The three police officers who answered the call are on paid administrative leave while the matter is under investigation. The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation is doing its own probe on the matter. The actual shooter has not been named, and none of the three officers have admitted to pulling the trigger either.

If a civilian is under suspicion of getting a child killed he is put in jail straight away. We've seen several stories just this summer of people being charged with manslaughter for letting kids bake to death in parked and locked cars. The dead boy's grandfather even mentioned this point in news reports. Shooting a boy in the head seems like a pretty grave act of negligence. Yet the shooter is not sitting in jail or anything of the sort.

Some will say, "the cop didn't mean to shoot the kid." True. But drunk drivers who kill people in car accidents don't intend to commit murder either, yet they are rightly punished for such a severely stupid action.

I'm coming down hard on this cop because he knows better than to pull any stupidity of this sort. Cops are trained in the use of deadly force on knowing when and where it is appropriate. A scenario with a snake climbing up a birdhouse is clearly not such a situation. He chose to fire anyway without regard to having a clearly defined safe background.

Someone at another gun related forum had this comment: There is no "I'm sorry," when it comes to shooting accidents.

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Christopher Meredith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 126
From: Jackson, MS, USA
Registered: Apr 2006

posted 08-13-2007 02:46 PM

You can go to the bank on there being a wrongful death lawsuit, and there ought to be negligent homicide charges too, depending on how corrupt the town government is...

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