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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Topic: More destructive to the music world - Yoko or Courtney?
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Mark Ogden
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 943
From: Little Falls, N.J.
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-24-2010 01:57 PM
Actually, Bobby, after I posted this morning (but too late to edit it in) I realize that I must have been working at The Cinema East on Erie Blvd. in Dewitt that night, where I was also the relief operator, and which was right down the road from Shoppingtown Mall. I remember CinemaNational making a big promotional thing about having the movie playing in stereo, and the East was only one of two screens in town that was capable of it at the time, the other being the 70mm equipped Shoppingtown Screen #1
Possibly I ran Clash Of The Titans, I don’t recall. As one of the one of the union relief guys, I would sometimes get into three or four different booths a week. It blurs. I remember taking my then girlfriend on a date to see it in sub-run, though, at the Eastwood Palace on James Street.
I went through Liverpool just last month on my way to Toronto, had me a Heid’s double frank and root beer, which was my favorite cheap meal back in the day. I went by the Cinema North, too, but was heartbroken by the shape it was in.
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 08-26-2010 04:31 PM
My own vote is that Courtney was worse. For me, it comes down to timing. Like Aaron said, Nirvana was still in phase 1. They had so much potential. The Beatles were enjoyed for a longer time, and it was somehow fitting that they never made it out of the 60’s. But I think they still had plenty of potential left as well.
quote: Pravin Ratnam
Love did at least make a few decent songs.
Dave Grohl heavily implied on more than one occasion that Kurt wrote a lot of Hole’s “Live Through This” album, which was their giant breakthrough. Doll Parts is a fantastic song, but it just sounds way to much like something Cobain would write. So she did curb his artistic ability as far as Nirvana was concerned, if he was focusing on helping her. I don’t think Love put the gun to his head, but I do think she encouraged and enabled his drug use which caused him to spiral deeper into depression. She certainly didn’t try to help him out of it.
quote: Martin McCaffery
Blaming the breakup on either woman implies that the guys were too weak willed to act on their own. Not likely.
I think that is exactly the case. You’ve never known a guy that lets a woman boss him around? Or at the very least, push him in a certain direction? Just because a guy is a famous artistic talent doesn’t mean they can’t allow a woman to pull their strings.
I agree with Steve on all points. You can’t assume the Beatles were done anyway. I believe Yoko was at the very least a catalyst, as Courtney was at the very least a catalyst to Cobain’s death. I don’t think money was the central issue for the Beatles. Guys get tired of each other after time, but they seem to get tired a lot faster and with more anger when a woman gets too involved. Spinal Tap comes to mind.
quote: Mike Blakesley
Cobain was on a fast track to hell with or without Courtney Love.
You don’t know that. Plenty of famous people have kicked drugs or alcohol before, or simply survived when medical reason says they shouldn’t (Ozzy) and his level of use before she entered the picture is purely hearsay. What is known is that his heroin use increased dramatically after they got together. The other two members of Nirvana have had nice careers since and heavily resent Love. She is all about money, fighting for years for the rights to songs that she had nothing to do with. I am glad to see Grohl come into his own with Foo Fighters, but would rather he have done that with Nirvana. I don’t know why Novoselic chose politics.
I was too young to know or care who John Lennon was when he died, but I can understand the sadness. It marked the end of the possibility the band would get back together. Lennon did make some great solo music, but it wasn’t in the same league as what The Beatles did as a group. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, they say. Don’t underestimate George and Ringo’s contributions. They may not have been the most talented guys in the band, but they played a very important role.
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Mark Ogden
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 943
From: Little Falls, N.J.
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-26-2010 07:04 PM
Look, there was no one cause to the Beatle’s break-up, and it certainly wasn’t just Yoko alone. In fact, just about a year ago, she told journalist Mikal Gilmore that it was clear to her that there were tensions within the band before she and Lennon ever met. Bear in mind that the Beatles actually had a brief, unofficial break-up in 1966 when they got fed-up with the touring schedule they were carrying, and Lennon later claimed that during that time he first got the idea of going solo.
No one is discounting George and Ringo’s contribution. In fact, there’s another reason: George was coming into his own as an artist and composer, and was angry with John and Paul’s policy of holding him to one track per album. Additionally, according to both the Bob Spitz and Peter Brown biographies, he was furious with the deteriorating financial circumstances at Apple (which caused Lennon to once predict that without a solid manager in place, they would be broke “within six months”, which was what triggered the whole Klein/Eastman/Northern Songs issue). And then there were the drugs, and the creative differences, and the control issues (Lennon: “We were tired of being sidemen for Paul”), and Paul wanted to solo with Linda, and yes, the whole Yoko thing. As I mentioned above, she was a divisive force, possibly even the proverbial “last straw”, but the division was already there before she got there and to lay it all at her feet as many have is unfair. They may have carried on a while longer if she hadn’t come around, but they were still headed for a break-up beyond the shadow of a doubt.
quote: Chad Souder
Spinal Tap comes to mind
Please. Spinal Tap was a parody. Mind you, it was a very funny parody, and I'm sure in many ways too accurate for comfort to most bands, but still a parody. Name another real-life example besides the Beatles and/or Nirvana, 'cause the jury still seems to be out there as well.
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 08-27-2010 12:04 AM
The Spinal Tap thing was supposed to be funny. I know it was a mockumentary. I think everyone knows that. At least I hope so. As for another real life example:
Scott Weiland Blames Wives
I'm not saying Yoko was the sole reason, but you can't understate her importance. She broke up John's marriage, so obviously she had a very strong effect on him. She became a constant companion, sitting in on recording sessions, which bothered the other Beatles. It is true that after Brian Epstein died there was no leadership and the band was left wandering. John just happened to wander wherever Yoko wanted him to.
My original question was not exclusively focused on the bands breaking up. If that was unclear, I apologize. I said a woman influenced the demise of the band (not was the sole reason), which I think we agree on, but then I asked which woman had a bigger influence and was more destructive to the music world. If you listen to whatever that garbage Two Virgins is supposed to be and don't think Yoko was a destructive influence to music, then I guess we will just disagree.
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