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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Author
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Topic: MGM HD presents West Side Story
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Monte L Fullmer
Film God
Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted 09-07-2011 05:30 PM
quote: Leo Enticknap
Fritz Reiner conducting a Beethoven symphony in the '60s and then Gustavo Dudamel doing so now, you'll find it a totally different experience - and I'm not just talking about the recording and playback technology, but the style of the performance as well.
(I'm gonna follow up with this one with Leo, thus excuse me for being off-topic for a bit here: Agree between Reiner and Dudamel: no comparison between the two.
Reiner was stone serious-his orchestra members almost hated him and even some had a fear for him, but Reiner turned the Chicago around totally from when Kubelik had it previously..and while Dudamel reminds me of Elton John back when Elton was quite the showman.
The Beethoven Reiner (RCA Victor Red Seal LSC-2343, recorded in late 1959, was an intesting recording in itself: Reiner followed the score as Beethoven wrote it. the opening "Victory"<dot-dot-dot-dash> phrase, most conductors leading this piece, adds the pause ((formata)) after that first phrase, but Beethoven didn't write the pause in the score-the repeat "Victory" phrase is to immediately continue then just the one formata afterwards, thus making the two "victories" as one phrase. Thus, when hearing this recording, it does catch you off-guard in thinking that Reiner flubbed on the conducting, or it was the results of a bad tape edit.)
It kinda shows how much that we are purists in the form of classic and exact presentations - none of this 'sugar coated' or 'plastic coated' stuff that likes to get re-released and studios calls it genuine.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 09-07-2011 06:06 PM
Agreed completely - the major American orchestras, conductors and pianists of the late 50s and '60s (Chicago/Reiner, Boston/Munch, Philadelphia/Ormandy etc.) had a unique style that you just didn't hear in classical recordings any more once the Karajan era got underway - brighter, sharper and with a more staccato edge to it, that perfectly complimented early stereo recording, which showed off channel separation better than frequency response. My favourite Reiner Living Stereo LP is the Brahms violin concerto with Jascha Heifetz - the playing is so sparse and precise that you hear every detail. That's also the style Bernstein himself developed during the early part of his conducting career (though admittedly I haven't seen West Side Story for over ten years, apart from one reel in a demo, and don't have any memories of the orchestral track on that) - in particular, his records of Nielsen's symphonies made in the early '60s spring to mind.
BTW, as well as the tendency of conductors to put in the unwritten rest between the two opening phrases of Beethoven's fifth, most pianists do exactly the same thing between the opening two phrases of the Hammerklavier sonata, too. The only recording I've heard in which it's actually played the way it's written is Glenn Gould's, which is ironic given that GG is quoted as saying that he hated it, and only ever performed it once in order to be able to claim that he'd 'been there and got the t-shirt' (i.e. performed all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas).
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Ramon Lamarca Marques
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 186
From: Edgware, England, UK
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 09-11-2011 05:32 AM
The orchestral elements have been removed by Chace Audio by Deluxe using source separation technology. Either they did not have separate tracks to do a new mix without the orchestra or it was cheaper to use the new software. The software analyses the different timbres and keeps some and removes the others. I would be interested to find out how the remaining timbers (voice and sound effects) sound after this removal.
I very much doubt they would be using a Blu-ray since there is a 2K DCP of West Side Story. Obviously, it would have been much better to use one of the new amazing 70mm prints. I think there are gorgeous film scores, like the ones composed by Korngold that would benefit from being played in the concert hall with the film projected. I am not saying that the original film recording should be replaced but that live concerts would do justice at the beauty and complexity of scores by Korngold, Rozsa, Herrmmann, …
Very, very impressive the parallel discussion on music recordings, tempos, rests and tenuto marks! I once tried to approach the subject of the showing of classic films on film instead of digital, having a similar kind of precise approach as to the image characteristics on projected film versus digital until I got abuse from another forum member and gave up.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 09-11-2011 07:40 AM
Well Chace can really work miracles on that sort of stuff, and I'm sure they will have found a way of stripping out the orchestral parts effectively and with a cueing method that works. A few years ago I worked with Bob Heiber on a presentation about some British Dufaycolor films from the '30s that he'd worked on the tracks to (Yours Truly basically providing the historical background on the Dufay system). These were made just before the negative-positive variant of the system was introduced, and so the only surviving soundtrack elements were release prints that had been made by reversal-to-reversal contact printing from separate picture and soundtrack positives. So with the loss of contrast on a variable area track duplicated through reversal generations (at least it wasn't VD, though!) combined with the Dufay reseau in the track area, you can imagine howbad the original prints sounded in projection! Bob played us 'before and after' clips: the befores sounded worse than an acoustic 78 from the teens. But the afters were astonishing - as clear if not better than the same type of track duplicated through b/w generations as per usual.
quote: Monte L. Fullmer
Also, on the Brahms/Heifetz/Reiner (RCA LSC-1903), (recorded Feb of 1955 two mic stereo with the helper mic on Heifetz) It was Heifetz's first stereo recording..and he was NOT impressed with the process - though it was "Hi-fi PHOOEY". During the playbacks, he heard the sound out of both speakers, but he was miffed that there wasn't any "center" speaker where he though his performance should be coming from, thus he got a bit twisted on the results.
Weren't Mercury experimenting with a three-channel consumer playback system around the same time? I have a vague memory from reading Wilma Cozart Fine's autobiography that when she played session recordings back to musicians with the three channels as recorded (L, R and a third mic boosting a soloist a bit) they reacted very positively, but were less impressed at the final stereo LP. I seem to recall that she proposed a three-channel 1/4-inch tape recorder to various manufacturers for seriously wealthy, classical music buffs to buy, but that none were interested, because by that stage the industry had basically settled on stereo for home playback.
Incidentally, on the subject of RCA Living Stereo classical LPs, I made an interesting discovery a few weeks ago. The versions that were sold in Britain were cut and pressed by Decca under a licensing agreement from copies of the master tapes supplied by RCA - not by RCA themselves in the US. For some reason early Decca stereo classical LPs, including the RCA-licensed ones, are much sought after by collectors and regularly go for £50 plus on Ebay (here for example). The ones that really fetch the serious money are the pre-1970 pressings, before Decca switched from tube-powered cutter preamps to transistorised ones.
Needless to say, I don't possess very many of these! To be precise, I own four UK, Decca-pressed Living Stereos, two inherited from my grandmother, one picked up in a thrift store type place for a lot less than it would have got if Ebayed, and one of which I'll come on to in a moment. I do, however, have about 30-40 pre-Dynagroove US-pressed Living Stereos (with the dog label), most of them bought in the used records department of Amoeba Music in Hollywood on trips to the US, none of which cost more than $3 and almost all of which sound amazing. I've even picked up 99-cent ones in more or less mint condition.
I've always wondered if the UK-pressed Living Stereos actually sound better or if the high prices they fetch are just snobbery. Well, recently, I got the chance to find out. My local Oxfam shop (big charity chain of thrift stores) had a UK-pressed copy of LSC-2581 (Brahms' piano concerto #2, Van Cliburn/Reiner) for which they wanted £10 - normally a lot more than I'd be willing to pay for a used LP, but I already had a copy of the US pressing and was itching to make a comparison.
It was a shock - the British pressing was virtually unlistenable compared to the American one. The tape hiss was seriously distracting, with a lot of the piano solo passages virtually getting lost in it. The bass response and channel separation were nothing like as good in the RCA-pressed version, either. If my two copies aren't rogue examples from their respective factories (the US one unusually good and the UK one unusually bad), then I can't begin to understand why collectors are willing to pay so much for the British examples. I can only assume that they don't really like to listen to music at all, but only want the Decca discs because they were probably pressed in much smaller quantities and therefore have snob value. All I know as a result of that is that I'll be continuing to test Delta's excess baggage weight policy to the limit after future trips to Amoeba!
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