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Topic: Advice needed on venue reference footage

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-10-2014 11:25 PM

What about shooting your footage from the FRONT of the auditorium so the screen wouldn't be involved? If you were to do it that way, and try to find a theater with the owner in the building (difficult these days but it can be done), explain your project and it should be relatively simple once the owner knows your motives aren't "suspect."

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Justin Silverstein
Film Handler

Posts: 10
From: Northport, NY, USA
Registered: Feb 2014

posted 02-10-2014 11:28 PM

Frank, while I of course understand and respect what you're saying, I don't think it's necessary for people to contact their own lawyers pre-emptively. If desired, I would be happy to write up and sign a formal contract affirming that the footage will be shared with no one and seen by no one, and offering to assume the burden of any legal culpability that might result were I to violate that promise. (IMHO, this would really be overkill, as the level of legal risk involved is minimal as far as I can tell, but I'll do it if that's what people need to feel comfortable working with me.) Paying for pre-emptive legal consultation fees for each individual who works with me isn't going to work for my budget, though.

And, Mike- interesting idea, and one of the first to occur to me, but none of the theater owners I spoke to would have any of it.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-11-2014 08:54 AM

I know from my own experience doing photography work that it is best to get signed release forms from anybody in the shot if there is any chance the imagery could be used for any possible commercial purpose.

If the photography is strictly nothing more than snap shots for personal use, like putting in the family album then obviously no releases are required. Something shot for journalistic purposes may not require signed releases. But that is a gray area considering some people are in the business of selling imagery or video footage to news agencies, which arguably makes their effort more commercial rather than editorial.

What is the end goal of this scientific study? Will the results be published, including the video imagery? Will someone eventually pay for that material? You mentioned "commissioning" others to take video. Does that mean paying others for that work?

When in doubt, get people in your photos or video to sign a release form. It's kind of a CYA type of thing.

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Michael Putlack
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 187
From: Fort Collins, Colorado
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 02-11-2014 01:54 PM

Here is a solution similar to Terry's:

First go to the theatre and speak to management about their group discount rate. If you're talking about a group of 200+ people, you might be able to get tickets to a matinee showing at a discount (second-run) theatre for as cheap as a dollar or two a ticket. Even at a first run theatre you might be able to get that many tickets to a Monday matinee for pretty cheap.

So, see if that fits in your budget, if not, maybe tell your focus group that they can see a movie for half the price you're paying for it. So, if you're quoted $2 a ticket at the discount house, tell the focus group they can see the movie for a dollar and I bet a good number of people would come out. If you buy out the auditorium and the group know they will be observed, I don't expect the management to have an issue with you recording as long as it isn't the screen.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 02-11-2014 04:26 PM

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
If I am correct, I believe it is a criminal offense to operate a recording device inside a movie theatre, I don't think it matters if you are recording the movie or not. There would be some legal matters here...

And I'd speculate that there are civil, as well as criminal ones, focusing mainly on copyright.

I'm doing a lot of speculating here, because I don't have the background knowledge needed to quote the chapter and verse of US (federal and individual states') law on the issue. As regulars on this forum know, but the OP of this thread might not, I'm originally from the UK and only emigrated here last year. However, I did do a lot of moving image archiving work on the other side of the pond, which involved me in quite a bit of the geekery around footage licensing and the copyright issues associated with that.

The first thing I'm not sure about is whether a movie theater qualifies as a public place for the purposes of privacy and copyright law here. I'm guessing that it probably doesn't, given that they are privately owned buildings that people are admitted to in exchange for payment (payment = a contract exists, and therefore the building owner has certain legal responsibilities to the customer).

England and Wales statutes basically establish that filming and photography in a public place is an absolute right, and that no-one can claim copyright ("peronality rights" or "image rights") in any photographic image of them made in a public place. This is why celebs cannot stop paparazzi from selling the photos of them they take while walking from a hotel lobby ot their limo, etc. Apart from one or two situations that are covered by official secrets or anti kiddie-fiddling laws, you can do what you like with a camera in public.

However, that does not apply in private premises. Under the 2001 EU Copyright Directive, someone filmed or photographed on private premises has the right to restrict the use of those images unless they've signed a release form, hence the reason anyone who appears on a TV show etc. is asked to sign one. I can't find any clear answer as to whether it's the same deal here. This article (a "Filming in Public Places 101" piece on an educational video company's website) would tend to suggest that it is.

So I suspect that Bobby and Terry are right, in that you'd need the permission of everyone you video for this to be legal. There might be a workaround, e.g. a notice placed in the theatre's lobby stating that audiences in the auditorium are being videoed for the purposes of an academic research project, and that by buying a ticket you agree to this. But my gut feeling is that investing in an hour or two of a good IP attorney's time is probably the next step you need to take.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 02-11-2014 05:14 PM

We have pictures and footage like this captured on multiple events, we publish this on our own site, press, etc. Frankly, I wouldn't know why this should be evaluated by a lawyer. The nature of footage like this will not allow to identify or pick out individuals, that would be my only concern IF this footage at some point might be published. IF individuals are featured in any special way, you have to get their permission. This is common law in germany.

As we own and operate the place, I do not need to ask anyone for permission to capture these images. If you're a patron trying to capture images inside the building, then of course you have to ask the manager beforehand.

- Carsten

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 02-11-2014 05:28 PM

How to go out of business, get fired and/or prosecuted in three easy steps:

1. Be gullible enough to allow a total stranger permission to record/study ANY typical goings-on in your cinema
2. Be unlucky enough to have a shooting or some other horrible crime take place in your cinema
3. Be super-unlucky-enough to have word get out that you allowed someone record typical goings-on in your cinema

That's really all there is to it.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 02-11-2014 05:59 PM

You mean all the pictures of booths, auditoriums, hallways, etc. circulating in this and other forums, YouTube, etc. have been either formally authorized OR been the cause of layoffs?

- Carsten

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 02-11-2014 06:12 PM

Ancient island proverb: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

In any case, this is very different from anything that's been done here. I'm not aware of anyone on Film-Tech posting hours and hours of footage of how/when/where people typically enter/exit a theatre.

Ever heard of casing a joint ?

quote:
To "case a joint" is to check out the details to, and make speculations about, a home, car, store or other location for means of getting in undetected and/or removing material from said location.

Usually referred to negatively as a means to describe being suspicious someone is going to steal someone's belongings, it can also simply be a synonym for reconnaissance.
1. That banger over there was casing the joint when I came in this morning.

2. Tell Tommy to go case the Sanders' joint and see if Paulie's car is there.

3. I saw you going out to case a joint earlier, you better not take anything.

In case anyone is reading this a long time from now...

This had happened fairly recently.

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Justin Silverstein
Film Handler

Posts: 10
From: Northport, NY, USA
Registered: Feb 2014

posted 02-11-2014 07:23 PM

Bobby- for all intents and purposes, this footage can be considered "personal use". There will eventually be a publication, but not of this reference footage itself, nor any closely related description or representation of it. Whatever data is eventually published will have been abstracted by quite a few layers. It's certainly not as though a direct description or accounting of behaviors of specific individuals will be published.

Michael- Interesting idea! If worst comes to absolute worst, maybe I'll attempt to make that work. I have my doubts as to whether I'll be able to wrangle a crowd on my own with the resources available to me, but it's at least worthy of consideration. Hopefully, such drastic measures won't be necessary.

Thanks of course to everyone else who's had input as well. I knew I came to the right place. [Smile]

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 02-11-2014 07:48 PM

Oh, come on, Manny. This is not a theoretical issue. Request is for footage of any auditorium with the lights going up and people exiting. No need to know when and where this was recorded, obviously.

If you wanted to get access to this kind of information for a real venue, their website with the schedule is the first place to go, and you wouldn't need to record a video, but just buy a ticket and look at your watch being there. No need to create this kind of attention on a forum beforehand. The scene he is after happens hundreds of thousands of times every single day all around the world.

- Carsten

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 02-11-2014 08:13 PM

My position remains unchanged.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-11-2014 08:19 PM

Also he's not looking for "hours and hours" of footage, maybe what, 3 minutes tops?

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 02-11-2014 08:50 PM

Mhmm.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 02-12-2014 07:27 AM

Manny, please! Put down your glasses! ;-)

- Carsten

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