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Topic: Future of CD-Rw and DVD-RW ?

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 06-13-2014 04:33 PM

quote: Sam Graham
I've found it's not just lossless, but WAV files specifically.

The format itself is lossless. The bits that come out after decompression are the same that went in per specification.

Maybe your encoding software does some "re-EQ-ing" or your player handles WAV files differently, but the whole concept of lossless is that the decompressed stream is binary identical to that what went in...

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Sam Graham
AKA: "The Evil Sam Graham". Wackiness ensues.

Posts: 1431
From: Waukee, IA
Registered: Dec 2004

posted 06-13-2014 05:19 PM

Strange. I've done this test in two different vehicles, in one case doing all of the uploads on the same machine/iTunes install, and playing back on the same iPhone.

They sound blatantly different.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-13-2014 05:37 PM

It was:

quote:

$ exiftool ~/spectrum.jpg | grep -i photo
Software : Adobe Photoshop CS6 (Macintosh)
Photoshop Thumbnail : (Binary data 10280 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Photoshop Quality : 9
Photoshop Format : Optimised
Creator Tool : Adobe Photoshop CS6 (Macintosh)
History Software Agent : Adobe Photoshop CS6 (Macintosh), Adobe Photoshop CS6 (Macintosh)

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 06-15-2014 06:43 PM

Well yeah I had to use Photoshop to combine the two images. They won't crop, add text and combine themselves. Bobby and Scott are you trying to say there's deception going on? Speak up if ya are.

The fact remains that the original WAV and lossless M4A are 100% identical.

Sam do you change anything in iTunes like bass boost or anything like that which uses the iTunes software to alter the tonal quality of the sound?

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Sam Graham
AKA: "The Evil Sam Graham". Wackiness ensues.

Posts: 1431
From: Waukee, IA
Registered: Dec 2004

posted 06-16-2014 02:47 PM

EQ is set to "Classical" with Volume Limit and Sound Check set to "Off".

In any case, this is really much ado about nothing. I have a solution that works for me is all the original point was.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 06-17-2014 09:36 PM

Its not much ado about nothing, it's a bunch of hoopla over minor issues. Anyway your EQ settings could be encoded into the new file and then the EQ setting gets applied again. Just a hypothesis.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-17-2014 10:09 PM

Maybe the tone controls are set different in one vehicle? Some hidden EQ setting perhaps?

I found my iPod was sounding really bass-heavy in my vehicle and I kept having to turn the bass down....then I realized I had set the bass higher on the iPod itself when I took it on a plane trip, because my headphones don't have enough bass. So I was getting "double bass" in the vehicle. Set the iPod back to "flat," problem solved.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-18-2014 09:20 AM

All sorts of playback devices are notorious for adding in their own flavors of digital sweetening.

This is why it's not very easy to play DTS encoded Music CDs. Some devices, like my Playstation 3, will recognize the data format and keep it intact. A Blu-ray player or DVD player must also do the same thing. It's hit or miss finding a CD player equipped with an optical output that doesn't color the bit stream before it is passed to an outboard decoder or surround sound receiver equipped with DTS decoding. Personal computers often suck at playing DTS Music CDs because of variables starting with the software being used to play the disc. Even if the computer's sound card can understand every DTS format the playback software and even the computer's operating system may insist on adding their own "me too" bits of bullshit that end up corrupting the bit stream.

I have wanted to rip the handful of DTS music CDs I have in my collection, but haven't figured out a reliable enough way to do it.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 06-18-2014 02:42 PM

They can be ripped just as you'd normally rip a CD, by dragging the audio file to a folder on the desktop. Actually on Windows I think that just creates shortcuts for some stupid reason. But anyway I've done this on the Mac and I'd get what it thought were normal 44.1Khz 16-bit stereo AIFF files. I'd click them and Quicktime 7 would open and it'd play back in DTS 6 channel. But if I lowered the volume slider on the Quicktime Player even a smidge, the audio would break and become SHHHHHHHHH white noise-ish type sound. That computer had an optical output.

I can illegally send you a DTS audio file if you want as WAV or AIFF... probably AIFF. Burn it to CD-R as an audio CD and see if it plays. I want to make sure it is a CD you don't have because I want to keep the criminal element intact.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-18-2014 03:39 PM

Yeah, on Windows if you try dragging and dropping from a music CD to a hard disc folder it will only drag a useless .CDA shortcut file. You have to use some kind of application to rip the music content, be it WinAmp, VLC media player or Windows Media Player, and have it show up as a .WAV file.

I haven't tried ripping a DTS music CD with Adobe Audition. I wonder if its "extract audio from CD" function will work more reliably.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 06-18-2014 03:50 PM

Can you copy and paste into a new folder perhaps? Or does that also create a shortcut? Even if it writes a big CDA file you should just be able to change the extension to WAV. It's all LPCM. I can change AIF to WAV and it still works as a WAV.

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012

posted 06-18-2014 04:19 PM

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
I just replaced my almost five year old Mac laptop with a new 13 inch MacBook Pro that still came with a disc drive and was told it is the only current new model that has one. I asked why and the Mac person told me the computing world is moving away from discs just like they did with floppy discs and Flash drives are the 'in' thing now. Almost all new Macs will now need a external disc drive to read and burn discs. On top of that, my local Costco where I have always bought blank CD RWs and DVD RWs have not had any for sale now for a while and the sales person does know if they will ever carry them again. I have seen them at Sam's Club and other retailers but for how long? Are CD RW and DVD RW going to be eventually phased out soon?

I would fully expect an optical drive on any Mac, especially at the ridiculous price Apple is charging, having to pay extra for a separate external unit is simply a rip off.

Now that is out of the way, CDs are pretty much done, DVD and bluray are slowly dying and I am afraid that we will see a big collapse in physical media purchases in the next few years. I myself like the idea of ownership, but I have noticed I am watching more and more Netflix and renting on iTunes more than I am purchasing movies. Redbox is pretty good, but it is only good because it is cheap and I can walk to pick up a rental. Now when I visit a video store I usually check to see if the movie I want is available on streaming on my Can I Stream It App, then the library, and then only then I might purchase it.

We do burn DVDs from Redbox on occasion.

As for music, I rarely purchase a CD unless I go and watch an Indie band at a local pub and they have a CD to buy. But that is rare occasion.

I get that CD is still superior to iTunes or whatever the download is, but I just got a brand new 2014 car on Saturday and I must say blue tooth music streaming, USB and iPod connectivity as well as an aux input is so much more convenient. The car came with a single slot CD player as well, I doubt I will ever use it [Big Grin]

And CD player does not work with my voice recognition.

With files and such, I never print at home EVER. I just use Google Drive to transport any info that I need. If I need to print, a FedEx Kinkos is a handy place to visit.

I think there will always be a place for optical storage/purchases, but going cloud based, or the streaming option is so much more convenient and I think I probably have more access to films and music than I ever did before.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-18-2014 06:25 PM

Amazon Prime just added I don't know how many thousand albums to their streaming service. So now you can stream all of that stuff through a phone and, via Bluetooth, to any other device you have handy. I've already listened to about a half dozen albums that I'd been curious about but never bought. (In some cases I'm glad I didn't buy them!) It's surprising some of the great stuff they have available.

It's kind of a sad thing that ownership is going away but I can understand why it is. Not counting a 10-disk box set, I think I only bought one or two CDs last year. I used to buy a couple or three every month, at least.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-19-2014 09:17 AM

What about BluTooth transmission from device to device -- what is THAT quality? Can one expect the sound quality of what is basically an over-the-air broadcast to be as robust as a wire? I never hear the techs in the digital audio lab talk about the bluetooth specs...they just seem to assume that whatever audio gets sent from one bluetooth device will be identical coming out of the receiver device. I find that hard to believe.

As for this wise habit:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I do maintain multiple back-ups of work files.

There is a sign on our studio wall:
DIGITAL: If you don't have 3 copies of it, you don't have it.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-19-2014 02:40 PM

quote: Joe Redifer
Can you copy and paste into a new folder perhaps? Or does that also create a shortcut?

The problem with viewing LPCM files on a music CD in Windows' File Explorer or any File/Open dialog box is the .CDA file is essentially seen as a dummy file of sorts; there's little if any actual data in the file. The actual LPCM music data is hidden. Lots of PC-based multi-media software can still play standard music CDs and rip them somewhat properly, but you can't merely drag and drop the song files from the CD into hard disc folders like you can in the Finder on a Mac.

I still need to try opening one of the DTS CD tracks in Audition. I have the CS5.5 version on my personal notebook. I have the CC and just downloaded CC 2014 versions on my work PC. Both computers have sound cards that will do internal DTS decoding. I can hook my notebook up to my home theater system via an optical cable.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I would fully expect an optical drive on any Mac, especially at the ridiculous price Apple is charging, having to pay extra for a separate external unit is simply a rip off.

Given the lack of native Blu-ray movie playback in Mac OSX, the lack of an optical drive isn't such a big deal. However, in exchange I would want a generous number of USB 3.0 ports as well as connections for HDMI, Firewire, Display Port & Thunderbolt. Instead of using all the space formerly taken by the optical drive to make the computer smaller/thinner, why not allow for more memory expansion or a more beefy graphics card? The biggest problem I have with Mac notebooks is them gluing in all the parts, even the damned battery.

Computer companies are doing away with optical discs for installation and OS back-up. I have my OS recovery copied onto a 16GB USB flash memory stick. That's actually an easier & faster method since you don't have to fart with switching out 2 or 3 DVD-R discs during a system restore procedure. I also have a hidden system restore partition on the hard disc drive, but hard drives do fail, hence the USB memory stick back-up.

Software companies are trying to shift everyone to download-able installers and getting rid of boxed software entirely. We have two licenses of Adobe Creative Cloud at my workplace; that stuff is download-only. The last couple licenses of MS Office we bought were downloaded. Even sign industry specific software is going that route. We bought our last update of FlexiSign Pro online. Our Roland VersaWorks RIP software installs via an old CD, but all of the updates (more than 2GB worth) are based online.

I still like optical disc drives since Music CD and Blu-ray offer superior quality music and movies over what one can stream online. I'm burning fewer and fewer discs though.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I get that CD is still superior to iTunes or whatever the download is, but I just got a brand new 2014 car on Saturday and I must say blue tooth music streaming, USB and iPod connectivity as well as an aux input is so much more convenient.

I'm not a big fan of music playback over Bluetooth. I've tried it out in several different vehicles, from fairly affordable to stupid expensive. Music via Bluetooth sounds muddy in every one of them. I get much better results copying a bunch of music to a USB memory stick, be it in .WAV format or 320kb/s MP3. Either way sounds a lot better than Bluetooth. Obviously, the vehicle needs to have a USB port for this to work.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Amazon Prime just added I don't know how many thousand albums to their streaming service. So now you can stream all of that stuff through a phone and, via Bluetooth, to any other device you have handy.

Yeah, I saw this as well. It makes me feel a little better about that $20 price hike. I haven't tried out the music streaming service yet. I guess Amazon intends to compete with rival music subscription sevices from Google Play, Sony and others. The obvious question I have is: what's the bit rate of the streamed music? The tunes sold by Amazon are 256kb/s variable bit rate encoded .MP3 files. If the music streaming bit rate is similar that would make it quite a bit better than the free versions of Pandora, Rhapsody, etc.

quote: Frank Angel
DIGITAL: If you don't have 3 copies of it, you don't have it.

Here's another thing to add: don't keep all your back-ups in the same place. What if your office is burned down in a fire or flattened by a tornado?

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