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Author Topic: light switch orientation Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 08-28-2015 04:05 PM                     But Scott, you're looking at two different types of switches. In the UK the two toggle switches would be off, and the single rocker switch would be on. I'm not sure about light switches, but in mainland Europe toggle switches on appliances seem to be up for on, but down for on in the UK. Larger switches,anything from the lighting 'main' switch in a house to industrial switches rated at hundreds of Amperes, always seem to be up for on wherever in the world they are. really big knife switches are generally up for on, and large circuit breakers are down whether set or tripped. To set them you lift the handle, which does nothing, and then pull it down, which closes the contacts. To trip them manually you lift the handle sharply, which trips the breaker, and then allow it to drop back down which does nothing. I've stood next to a 20,000 A d.c. one, made in the first decade of the 20th century, and definitely not conforming to modern health and safety standards; a really frightening thing, and it was in service until about twenty years ago. As to NEMA receptacles, I'm told that the standards do not specify a preferred orientation, and I've seen plenty both ways, and a few duplex receptacles which have one outlet each way. Ground down seems to be generally standard on older installations, while both are common in newer ones. Larger 30 and 50 A ones generally seem to be ground up. The argument I've heard for ground up is that if something is dropped, and falls onto a partly inserted plug in is more likely to land on the ground pin than a live blade. this sounds like a pretty unlikely scenario, and wouldn't happen in most other countries, where receptacles and/or plugs are designed so that a partially inserted live pin is never exposed. There's an interesting situation in Europe where most countries have plugs where live and neutral pins are round, and spaced 19 mm apart. There are several different eathing arrangements; German and Italian plugs are non-polarised, but Swiss and French are polarised, in the sense that the plug will only fit one way, but the French standard does not specify which pin is live, and which neutral, so the 'polarised' design is meaningless. You can even buy double adapters in France where one socket it earth down and the other earth up, but both are wired with live on the same side, left or right, so that the two sockets have opposite polarity, unlike Duplex NEMA one I've seen, where the grounds are towards the centre, so the two outlets are opposite ways round, but the internal connections cross over, so that both outlets are connected correctly. With toggle switches up for on, as in the US and most of Europe, seems more logical, though I don't really know why. With rocker switches, top sticking out for on, as in the UK, seems more logical because these switches are normally mounted below eye level, so you look down on them, and can see the top of them when they're in this position. Here, the top is often coloured red to indicate that they're on when in this position. when turned off this red is not visible.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 08-28-2015 05:34 PM                     It could go very far back where switches should never activate on their own by gravity as a safety measure. That way, the switch mechanics should only travel into the 'ON' position against gravity. When the whole electricity thing started, they only had few (if not only one) type of switch, and these may have had that tendency to 'fall' into the downward position. As far as I know, there is no regulation in germany about this, and boy, we DO have a lot of regulations and standards on electrical installation. But we have so many choices of switches around here. That said, a lot of simple domestic switches used to have red lines on the protruding part that would serve as an On/Off indicator. I guess most people do not really care, since these switches are mostly used to switch on lights, and in these cases, the indicator is the result of the switch action in itself ;-) When machines, etc. are operated, there are usually other switch types. We do have regulations for sockets and switches in bath-rooms as well, and very often switches are positioned outside of these rooms. As then very often you can't see the light when the door is closed, we typically install indicator switches with a small light on them. Our automatic circuit-breakers here are ALL on in the UP position, with no exception. My personal preference which I implemented on all switches in my home is to push on the upper part for On. That said, we do have a lot of very large flat switches here where the difference in visible profile between On and Off is very small. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-28-2015 06:41 PM                        I am curious about electrical panels where the breakers move in a vertical orientation. In the US, the usual orientation is horizontal, like this: (with exceptions for high-current systems). Having the switch towards the center of the panel is usually "on," but I have seen older panels that reverse that. Either way, "ON" and "OFF" are indicated on the breaker. Older homes and businesses have fuse boxes. The goofiest thing about US panels is that, at least in new-ish residental installations, the main service disconnect is usually in the same panel as the regular breakers. It would seem to be that one would want to be able to completely de-energize the entire panel and that the main disconnect should be in a separate box, but that seems to be uncommon.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 08-28-2015 07:12 PM                     From what an electrician's instruction .. that the proper code for outlet installs, is that the ground being up (the frown look), so that if a metal object drops between plug and outlet, that the object hits the ground pin first than if installed with the ground being down (the smile), which would be prone to electrical fires up do direct shorts, if the object hits the hot blade first. I'd just mount the rocker switch to where it makes more sense. Here at our location, we have a barista coffee unit with the power rocker switches that use the European (rocker down for "on") position.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 08-28-2015 08:58 PM                        Italy has 3 inline round pins. Much like the two pin for Germany except the center of the three pins is ground. The down-is-on switch could also be viewed as: Raise switch to turn the darkness on.  |  IP: Logged Michael Putlack Expert Film Handler Posts: 187 From: Fort Collins, Colorado Registered: Sep 2011 posted 08-29-2015 04:42 AM                        So, I've been probably putting too much thought into this over the last day, but I think we're looking at this the wrong way. Each of the example switches are on when the switch itself is angled down towards the wall. So, in that regard, they are the same. Another way of seeing it is if the top of the switch is furthest from the wall, the switch is on in both cases. I have to say, this was tough to get used to when I moved to NZ. Also, I don't understand why every wall outlet has a pair of switches of it's own. Is this common elsewhere around the world?  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 08-29-2015 05:04 AM                     No, but I noticed this as well when I started traveling to Ireland. Basically they seem to have the same product in all the houses there. Two sockets, two switches, the same design everywhere. And these switches show red indicator color for 'On'. When you go to a D.I.Y. store in germany, there are dozends of different designs of switches, plugs, sockets, frames,covers,1,2,3,4,5 in a row, different colors, shapes etc. Also most of our stuff here is flush-mounted. Also, in Ireland and the UK they have equipment fuses in the wall-plugs. In germany, fuses are in the device itself. But our standard mains-plugs are too small for fuses anyway, especially the two-pin euro plugs. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 08-29-2015 09:06 AM                     Louis, there are two diameters of pins in Europe, Italian and Swiss ones are 4 mm, and French, German, Danish, ones are larger, 4.7 mm I think. The live and neutral pins are all spaced at 19 mm, and the dreadful two pin 'Euro' plug is designed to be able to ( badly) fit all of them. It has two 4mm pins which are angled inwards slightly towards the tips, so they will still make contact in 4.7 mm sockets. Even worse are the so called 'universal' travel adapters, which are designed to take almost all plugs worldwide, except for the 15 A South African one, but which fit most of them badly, often do not provide an Earth connection, and have large, odd-shaped holes into which children could easily insert various objects. Scott, that panel looks very much like the one in the projection room where I am now. breakers are horizontal, and 'out' for on. Labels are red, yellow and blue, the old phase colours before these were changed to brown, black and grey. Vertical breakers seem to be more common in small, domestic, panels.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 08-29-2015 03:09 PM                        Stephen: I gave up on travel adapters a long time ago. I carry 24 inch cords left over from amplifiers for UK and German plugs. US female connector on other end with a 3 way splitter. Everything I own will run on 90-240 volt. 50 or 60 Hz. If not, then I won't buy it. Wife bought a multi voltage hair dryer in Germany.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-29-2015 04:38 PM                        At work we have a couple of spots where there are two switches (opposite sides of the room) to control the lights. So either up or down could be on. This reminds me of a cool Gallagher quote: "Why do they label light switches 'off and on?' If the light's on, you can see it's on; if it's off, you can't see to read!"  |  IP: Logged Frank Cox Film God Posts: 2234 From: Melville Saskatchewan Canada Registered: Apr 2011 posted 08-29-2015 05:19 PM                        Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-29-2015 05:50 PM                     With respect to the receptacle, every NEMA diagram for the 5-15 (or 5-20) will show the ground pin down (likewise on the other straight blade NEMA drawings). The reason I heard that the practice on installation was changed was due to the potential for a metal wall plate to come off and land on hot and neutral. With the ground pin up, you have a 50/50 shot that the short will go between ground and neutral or ground and hot. Anyone remember the Christie CK-20 console (and I think the CH had the same "design"...if you merely removed on of the ZEUS screws for the rectifier adjustment cover plate, the plate could swing around and land right across anything plugged into the convenience outlet. Never happened to me but I did know of it happening.  |  IP: Logged Kenneth Wuepper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1026 From: Saginaw, MI, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 08-29-2015 08:25 PM                     I the old comic strip, Major Hoople had this switch thing nailed. The hallway switch has these positions OFF ON NOT ON End of definition.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-29-2015 10:21 PM                        Reminds me of the "Far Side" cartoon captioned "Night school for electric chair executioners." It shows a class full of students, earnestly writing in their notebooks, while the instructor speaks in front of a slide on the screen of a toggle switch labeled "off" and "on". Can't remember which way round it was, though...  |  IP: Logged Mark Hajducki Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 500 From: Edinburgh, UK Registered: May 2003 posted 08-30-2015 01:06 PM                     quote: Stephen Furley With rocker switches, top sticking out for on, as in the UK, seems more logical because these switches are normally mounted below eye level, so you look down on them, and can see the top of them when they're in this position. Here, the top is often coloured red to indicate that they're on when in this position. when turned off this red is not visible. Although light switches don't have the red marking it makes sense for them to switch the same way when a single switch controls the light.  |  IP: Logged

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