This is topic Vote NOW ----> Kodak or Fuji in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000149
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-18-1999, 08:31 PM:
Which film stock do you prefer, and why?I prefer FUJI stock because it does not shed or leave gunk, it runs smoother and quieter, and is alwys much cleaner. Kodak prints shed and are a pain to deal with. I also believe that Fuji prints look much better onscreen.
Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 07-18-1999, 09:47 PM:
I also prefer Fuji for the same reasons as Joe has mentioned------------------
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-18-1999, 11:10 PM:
What are people's thoughts on the Ilford B&W stocks? I've only dealt with Eastman B&W prints, and can say that the ESTAR material is generally quite dreadful (though some prints didn't shed at all), though the B&W acetate stock is fine, although it lacks silver content. The rumor mill says that the reissue prints of "The Third Man" that are circulating now are on Ilford stock; can anyone confirm or deny this? The print of this title that I saw looked quite good, with great contrast and density.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-19-1999, 01:29 AM:
FUJI all the way! Joe explained the reasons in a pretty straightforward manner.I haven't worked with the Ilford B&W stock yet. It will be interesting.
Posted by Erika Hellgren (Member # 22) on 07-20-1999, 03:00 AM:
No brainer!!!! FUJI, baby! Yeah!
Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 07-20-1999, 06:38 AM:
Its Fuji all the way for me!Bruce
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-21-1999, 02:01 PM:
Another vote for Fuji here! (although I'm pleased anytime I get a print without scratches on it.)
Posted by Brian Paymer (Member # 57) on 07-23-1999, 04:41 AM:
Fuji. Accept no substitutes.
Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 07-23-1999, 12:21 PM:
Fuji film stock saves me time and energy at our theater. No powder, no static, and crisp colors are what I EXPECT and GET. Fuji Forever!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Tim Spencer (Member # 58) on 07-24-1999, 08:35 PM:
until i came across this web site i had not payed too much attention as to a pattern of which movies shedded. after learning about which companies use which filmstocks i must strongly cast my vote for fuji. nowadays that is the first thing i check when i get a new movie in and it is always the fuji prints which run smooth and clean.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-04-1999, 09:59 AM:
Kodak --- my job depends on it ;-)Seriously, my job is to understand these concerns, and there obviously are some. Most of my information has come from the rec.arts.movies.tech newsgroup, and from surveys run by NATO, and they seem to indicate that the polyester flaking/dusting issue affected all films, and were very dependent upon the projector type (Joe Redifer had continual problems, Scott Norwood almost none). Have Kodak prints gotten better or worse than a year ago? Or do you feel the other films have recently improved? Is there perhaps a correlation with the lab, as some labs have been trying to lubricate prints again? What about humidity? Some recent reports seem to show high humidity plays a role. Has the nature of the debris changed (emulsion vs. base)?
------------------
John Pytlak
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-1999, 02:45 PM:
Here's your answer as to why Scott doesn't have problems while Joe does...projectors! Scott runs Century SA projectors which are extremely gentle on the film while Joe runs Christie projectors. I have extensive experience with many systems and the Christies are by far the worst on prints! I have seen prints which shed every show on a Christie and then seen the same prints ran through a Century with no shedding whatsoever. The reverse is also true. I have received prints which have a slight variation to the edge slitting and a Christie will weave violently while that reel will play steadily on a Century, Simplex, etc. The sad part from what I've heard is that Christie is disinterested in improving their product and everyone is buying their "package" deal for new theaters. This should be the projector for which all R&D at Kodak is done, as it is what I consider worst case senario.Another commonly found machine which seems to promote shedding and dirt attraction, although nothing like the Christies, is the Simplex. Although this is an excellent machine, gate/trap tension is too high straight from the facotry and the soundhead relies on a little rubber/felt ("dirt embedder") roller. I have explained this in the past somewhere here on the forum, but this little roller collects dirt and presses with a good amount of tension right into the emulsion of the film, just after it has been softened by the heat of the lamp! It is for this reason that in a 50% Simplex and 50% Century booth, the Simplex prints will look extremely dirty in no time. I have another $5 solution for this, but haven't had the time to take pics and sit down to write it out. (Will do soon.)
Have Kodak prints gotten better or worse? That depends. The best years of Kodak stocks were the last half of the 1980s and early 1990s with the "LPP" prints! I think most anyone will agree with me there. Of course, these prints were also on triacetate stock. (Could you please explain for the record why this switch to polyestar took place? Cost?)
As to the polyestar Kodak stocks, the more recent ones (but not all...will start taking notes for you) are far better in regards to static (I don't get shocked inspecting nearly as bad lately). I have heard many people are having worse problems with shedding from the Vision line of prints for some reason. (I use FilmGuard myself and this is not a problem as it neutralizes static and stops shedding.)
Can you tell me what's up with the "London" prints of Notting Hill? I have heard horrible things about these with the London tag on them. Apparently they are easily burned by the heat of the lamp, have had emulsion flaking off and I've even heard of colors smearing. Obviously these theaters do not want their names to be known, for fear they will be charged or I would post print numbers. They claimed to be using PTRs and dry media cleaners for cleaning the print and alcohol and XeKote for the projector heads. They didn't get the print stock, so I couldn't tell you if it was Kodak or Fuji. I ran this film and had no problems myself. I will note in past testing of XeKote years ago I have found "color smearing" to be a problem. The edges of white objects (such as a T-shirt) will start to turn green. I found this to be exaggerated with polyestar stocks. (Yes, these were "torture" tests...but I always do that with any product to find it's limit.)
I got two prints of "Eyes Wide Shut" and both were scratched from the lab. Are the labs not running scratch strips as frequently? The scratches went right into the leaders, which were of course cut to load onto a platter. Trying to get some of the studios to admit a print "can" come scratched from the lab is a nightmare. Fortunately, Warner was very concerned about the presentation of the film and shipped me two complete new prints, despite the fact I only needed certain reels. The prints I received came from Europe and were OUTSTANDING! Best prints I've seen since the days of Kodak's LPP stock! I believe they were on Agfa stock. Is Agfa still available? (I was rushed to get the scratched prints off the screen and only gave it a quick look.)
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-04-1999, 03:10 PM:
Hmm...could it be that older projectors (like the Century C's and SA's that I'm used to) have fewer shedding problems because the trap and gate have been slightly worn down over time? That's just a theory, anyway...I haven't worked with any machines built since the early to mid 1960s, so I don't really know. Also, I agree that the Simplex X-L's seem to have more shedding problems than Centurys; I have a reel from the IB Tech reissue of GWTW last fall; it sheds pretty badly on any projector, but when I ran it for a friend in his home theatre on X-Ls, the entire inside of the machine looked like it had been left outside in a snowstorm. And this was just one reel! I'd never seen anything quite like it.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-1999, 03:20 PM:
Yes you are definitely correct. This is why I find it so humorous when people say "change the gate bands" at a certain projector company. Older (worn) bands are definitely gentler on the film.As to your IB print, the actual film base is B&W. B&W as you know sheds like crazy! It is magnified with it being on polyestar stock. (But FilmGuard will put an end to that and clean it up for your friend.)
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-04-1999, 05:05 PM:
I'm not going to try this until I get some opinions, but what about sanding the gate with a very very fine grade of sandpaper? Do you think this could help or worsen the shedding problems?
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-04-1999, 05:29 PM:
The best method of honing down the gate is to make a positive use out of what used to be every engineers curse. Use 4 track mag stock spliced into a loop and it will wear down all the gate parts nice and fast. Many in this group probably will not remeber the wear on machine that ran 4 track mag and how quickluy the gate and pads wore down.
If you contact a lab or a large format theatre the full coat mag stock on polyestar is also good
Splice a loop good and long with an UltraSonic splice and thread it up and let it run with the highest gate tension for a day adding a small amount of cutting oil
Reverse it and do the same so that the other facxe of the gate is polished.
For years this is how Mitchell used to hone down camera parts
A diffrent type of valve grinding and that compound rubbed onto the mag stock will speed it up
During the installation of all new machine I usually do this and they don't have a lot of problems afterwards
The best method is what Ernaman and Norleco used to do have velvet lined gate bands
I have done this on Vic 5 and produced rocksteady images
The hairs of the velvet (that must be kept spotlessly clean) act like tiny registration pins holding the film steady.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-1999, 06:42 PM:
I have tried the method Gordon described here and it works quite nicely! If anyone wants to send me a roll of mag fullcoat on polyestar stock, I will be happy to make loops in whatever size you wish with an ultrasonic splice and send back to you.I also tried the velvet gate bands. It does help a little bit, but I had to change them every TWO days on a Christie...thus it is not worth it for any of you Christie operators. For something else like a Century or Cinemecannica where gate tension is low and gentle on the film...go for it!
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-04-1999, 08:04 PM:
I am still interested in trying the genuine norelco velvet ribbon on a christie but the ones here are all straight gate with super movements in them so they don't count as they don't have many problems.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-1999, 08:09 PM:
Send some samples down of the Norelco ribbon. I'll test it out and report back on it. Always looking for ANYTHING that will give a truly steady picture from a Christie.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-05-1999, 08:15 AM:
"Fullcoat" Magnetic Oxide Recording Film on 5-mil Polyester Base should still be available from FPC in Hollywood. About $50 USD for a 1000-foot roll. ------------------
John Pytlak
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-05-1999, 02:24 PM:
I don't think the FPC address and phone number has been posted anywhere here before. Got the info handy for everyone?
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-09-1999, 04:11 PM:
FPC has a website at:
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fpc_main.html Their phone number is 800-814-1333.
Address is:
FPC
6677 Santa Monica Boulevard
Hollywood, CA 90038
------------------
John Pytlak
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-09-1999, 04:13 PM:
Tried the URL I gave for FPC and it didn't work. Let's keep it simple:
http://www.fpcfilm.com ------------------
John Pytlak
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-09-1999, 07:42 PM:
I have several unused rolls of FPC Fullcoat Mag. I will sell them to anybody for far far far less than $50! Like maybe just covering postage?
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-27-1999, 10:21 PM:
Politics.
Posted by David Johnson (Member # 173) on 11-03-1999, 03:45 AM:
My experience is that the Americian style projectors, with the metal shoe and metal gate are the cause of all the problems, With Kinoton DP75 and FP20, both use a plastic gate and shoe and no problems exist with either stock. The Vic 8 also seems fine, while they use a metal gate they have a different shoe design.
David
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 11-03-1999, 11:14 PM:
I've had some serious shedding problems with a Vic 8.