This is topic Depot packing in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-1999, 09:23 PM:
For the last few weeks, I have been seeing prints from the Technicolor depot come in with the string from the paper reel bands wrapped around the center hub of the reel. How annoying! It is virtually impossible to unravel this string without breaking it, defeating the whole purpose of the bands. My guess is they are wrapping the cores of film and THEN popping the reel on. Anyone else notice this?Also, isn't the whole purpose of the label sticker which goes on these bands to identify the reel? I keep getting prints where the label is used to tape the band down (instead of using the string) and the label must be destroyed in order to retrieve the film off the reel. Again, anyone else having this problem?
One would think Tech could afford to find someone managing their packing department who has once worked in a projection booth.
Posted by Erika Hellgren (Member # 22) on 07-23-1999, 11:26 PM:
Yes, Brad, I have noticed all of the above lately. Personally, I can't stand reel bands!!! They're a pain in the butt. I look for excuses to throw them away. Oops, just stepped on a reel band -- must go in the trash.
And while we're on the subject of the depots, have you noticed that more and more prints are coming with the reels heads, tails, heads, tails!!!! It used to be only Paramount prints that came that way. Both our prints of Eyes Wide Shut were like that. Yeah, just what I need, to rewind 4 out of 9 reels when I'm building up film.
ALL FILM SHOULD BE SHIPPED ALL TAILS UP! Yeah right, keep dreaming, Erika 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-1999, 12:04 AM:
EXACTLY! If even a single reel band is damaged, the entire set must be thrown away.The prints coming head, tail, head, tail don't bother me near as much as trailers coming in that way. I use two tables side by side and I do a quick check of all prints Thursday nights and use the "auto rewind" arm on the second table to take care of those while I work on the other bench. With all the corporate ads and garbage that must go on prints nowadays it "can" take more time to put the trailers together!
Who else is tired of Fox and Paramount trailers coming wound emulsion in? It drives me crazy because it takes a few days for them to "relax" from that torture so they will focus properly. Often, I will wind those trailers back over when I get them in so they are emulsion out and just wait 3 days before putting them on screen.
Hey, while I'm ranting...what's up with all the garbage in the soundtrack area of trailers? I'm talking about negative dirt, bloops, etc that sound like crap if not cut off. And whatever happened to the nice 2-3 foot black strips before and after the trailers? Nowadays, sometimes the beginnings must be cut off due to garbage on the image and the ends frequently must be cut off due to noise in the audio track.
Let's not forget the current state of green bands! Check out Universal's bands in particular. They are printed with dark corners which look like a xenon in bad need of alignment.
One last thing and I'll quit. Does anyone here know how much extra $$$ it really costs to print frame lines? 
Someone needs to tip these labs off to such mistakes. Anyone have any contacts?
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 07-24-1999, 12:07 AM:
I have also had a ton of films come in half heads/half tails up. It is very annoying. I personally like prints to come in heads up.
Posted by Erika Hellgren (Member # 22) on 07-24-1999, 02:32 AM:
Oh God, I miss the days of having two make-up benches side by side! At my theatre, we have four booths, and two make-up benches in separate booths, so the heads - tails thing is probably more annoying to me than to most.
OK, now you've hit the nail on the head about the trailers. I notice lately that on attached trailers, the DTS code runs out before the COMING SOON frames disappear. I always cut the trailer before that happens. Just a personal pet peeve. And yes, somebody really needs to tell these people to print frame lines!!!! No Buena Vista trailer will ever have them. ARGGGGGG! And, no kidding, you don't have to crack open a Fox or Paramount trailer to figure out how it was wound. They wind them wrong religiously. Like it's a sin to do it right.
Sorry, I build up about 90% of the film that comes to our theatre, so I welcome the chance to bitch about these types of things.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-24-1999, 03:22 AM:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yes, everybody sucks! Actually, when reels come in heads and tails, it really pisses me off. I usually blame the director of the particular movie just because I need a name to yell at in my angst. I know that the director has nothing to do with it, but I gotta yell at someone. Trailers wound heads or tails doesn't really bother me. I can just spool them off into a cardboard box quicker than winding them onto the reel. Then from there it is spliced and wound with the rest of the trailers. I hate trailer work... it takes forever because so many need to go on. After I get done that and start working on the print, it really goes fast (unless there are many many lab splices).
If there is even the slightest tear or imperfection in a reel band, then that is excuse enough for me to throw every single reel band in the theatre in the trash!
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-1999, 06:14 AM:
Whew! Good thing I didn't mention Tech's reels that won't stay together. Glad I'm not the only one that is getting put out with such nonsense.I failed to mention one other thing earlier. Do anyone else's reels come in with so much dust on them that a bath of plain old yard dirt would make them cleaner? I have to keep a box of paper towels at the rewind bench just so I can bend the flanges back to wipe them somewhat clean. Otherwise, the dirt from the reels will get on the print as it is being unwound. Guess Tech doesn't have a maid service to dust for them.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-24-1999, 06:21 AM:
Actually, I kind of like reel bands, and they are far preferable to the really cheap masking tape that a lot of people use to keep the film from unwinding and cinching in shipment. Of course, I am referring to the "good" reel bands that are rarely seen now, except on Sony Pictures Classics releases (or so it seems). The Technicolor reel bands are a waste of time, since the string usually breaks off and they have to be taped together, anyway, defeating the purpose of reel bands entirely.
Posted by Thomas Ferreira (Member # 96) on 07-24-1999, 08:09 AM:
You know, I piss and moan about this every time I put a print together-nice to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Most of the time, I just toss the bands in the trash to make it easier for the next guy. What really irks me, though, is when I get a used print and someone used a half a roll of masking tape to attach the heads and tails to the film. When I break down a film, I break the splice and put a piece of splicing tape over one side to reattach the film. I had a used print of American Pie come in this week where the last person who built it up left about eight frames on the heads and tails. What's the point of this? I think you can identify the proper reel with one or two frames just as easily as eight.
And yes, Brad, you're right about those reel id stickers-and if you try to peel them off, they take a chunk of the band with them. Remember the days when that information used to be written on the band? Personally, if there's no band, I find it easier to look into the can, put the reels in order, and discern if any are tails up.
Posted by Jim Bedford (Member # 4) on 07-24-1999, 12:22 PM:
There should be a law that doesn't allow masking or silver tape in projection booths. We have two theatres that show films reel-to-reel and it is simply unbelieveable how film sometimes comes in from its previous screening. Leaders gone or on the wrong reels, masking or silver tape holding the film down, etc. One of the reasons I think forums like this are so important is that they can link people together and can be a source for education and teaching new projectionist how to improve their craft and how to solve problems.
Thanks to all of you who are truly trying to make things better. Thanks Brad!
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-24-1999, 03:51 PM:
The only tape allowed in my booth is Scotch tape (not used on film) and the white artists tape. The white tape does not leave any kind of residue on the film at all, and it is easy to write reel numbers or titles on. I always write down the reel number on a piece of white tape as I am building, and as the film is broken down, that tape is used to secure the leader to itself, thus making everything easy to identify for the next person to get the print.[This message has been edited by Joe Redifer (edited 07-24-99).]
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 07-24-1999, 11:54 PM:
God, it is a pain when a print comes in with the heads and tails taped on by a popcorn operator. But I've had even worse. I used to work at an art house that received many used prints that had seen many booths. Prints would come in with no tape or bands on the reels, there would be a tangled mess of loose film in the cans. It sometimes took a while to separate and identify the different reels from each other. I even had one print come in without any leader on reel one. The first frame on the reel was the feature. We requested a replacement since the whole prints was also scratched up. The replacement came it and it was another tangled mess of loose film that I had to unravel before build up. And even worse, I once got a print of Rocky Horror which had a splice or a torn sprocket every few inches of the entire feature!
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-25-1999, 12:45 AM:
Well, most art houses can't afford real operators, nor good equipment. That's why those prints are always so bad.What's worse are the art houses which are so "poor" they can't even invest in a platter, and will run a film for a few weeks at a time. The stress involved in brute force pulling of the supply reel and rewinding after every show is where most of the damage comes from. Lots of cinch marking from the "pull" of the supply reel and rewinding, plus the static dirt attraction from rewinding all make for a poor presentation. Let's not forget all the manual handling of the heads and tails of each film every single show too! I've always said if the print is to be run twice or less, than go ahead with reel to reel operation. BUT, 3 times or more stick to a platter! I actually spoke on a forum a while back with an older gentleman who believed a print was in "pristine" condition if there wasn't a cut on the leaders where it had been platter mounted or mounted on 6000' reels. Apprently that's all that mattered for it to be rated an A+ print. (Some people just won't accept new technology. )
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-25-1999, 01:52 PM:
In Toronto the art/rep houses have probably the most skilled projectionist left since they still pay far more than the two circuits do for there multiplexes.
Also they all run either 20 minute or 6000 foot reels and some of them run the same print for months with less damage than most multiplexes seem to inflict on the prints.
Reel Bands in Ontario are manditory by law since they bear the stamp (or sticker) of the Ontario Film Review Board (censor board) and are actually referred to as censor bands. The use of the string prevents the end coming loose in the can unlike masking tape.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-25-1999, 03:28 PM:
Having only worked in art houses with old equipment (Century projectors, 2000' and/or 6000' reels, and, in one case, carbon-arc lamps), I must chime in here and say that I've run films for as long as one month on 6000' reels with no visible print damage whatsoever. No scratches, no cinch marks, no repair splices. And this is with my working once or twice a week with some less-than-competent co-workers. For the month-long run, I agree with Brad that a well-designed and properly adjusted platter would have probably put slightly less wear on the film, but having that second projector is a godsend for once-only or twice-only shows, which were fairly common.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-25-1999, 04:45 PM:
One of two shows, yes I have already agreed for changeovers as my preference. But, take those exact same professional operators running a print reel to reel and give them a platter, and the film will leave better a month or two down the road than if they had run reel to reel. Platters exert far less stress on the film. Reel to reel (unless there is a feed motor driving the reel) is still a brute force action...as is rewinding after every performance.I'm not arguing bad platter operator vs. good changeover operator. I'm taking the quality of the operator out of the equation and comparing film transport methods for runs of any length.
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 07-26-1999, 01:06 AM:
I did relief work in a change-over booth today, and was very impressed with the condition of "Phantom Menace", considering how long that print has been running. There is so much extra leader on it that the actual show isn't being constantly handled and the leaders all look brand new. But I'll agree with Brad that platter operation, with a real tech, is probably less stressful on film. It just seems to me that most of the print damage I've encounted with used flicks is from improper platter tear down. Too many operators let the film rub on the platter, or run it at lightning speed until it gets tangled and snaps. Then they put tape on it and keep going.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-26-1999, 01:22 AM:
I can answer that one in one word...TECHNICOLOR!
Technicolor is the reason for such poor handling. It is due to their insistence of having their prints back bright and early the next morning, and often by midnight! There is no time to be careful, although many projectionists DO take their time...most do not.
I think most people will agree with me here.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-26-1999, 07:51 PM:
I've always thought that prints were duplicated on machines that have an auto-reverse mechanism in them. That way all they have to do is load up the negative and the raw stock and turn the machine on. When the negative hits the end of the reel, it reverses to print the next copy. Hence the reason half the reels come out backwards. Also, this would explain all the lab splices in weird places because when the raw stock gets low, they have to quickly splice on a new reel of stock before the machine runs out of film. (I understand they are over 100 feet long and have rows and rows of 'accumulators' in them.)If this is not true, then by all means, correct me.
When I get a print that has most of the reels backwards, I build it up onto 6K' reels tails first and from last reel to first. That way I don't have to rewind the whole damn print. All you do is decide which way would give you less rewinding. I've often built the first half of the movie the 'backward way' and worked on the second half while the other reel(s) was spinning onto the platter.
Reel bands? We don't need no stinking reel bands!
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-26-1999, 10:46 PM:
I just couldn't resist posting this one!!!I JUST finished building up a print of "Tango", not 10 minutes ago. (Sony Pictures Classics) and those damn cheap Technicolor reels did it again!
This time, when the reel 'melted down', it split in half ACROSS THE DIAMETER! It must have had a crack in it which caused it to blow apart from centrifugal force. Luckily, I was only going half speed or the thing would have imbedded itself in the wall! As it was, it went flying past my head at an alarmingly fast speed!
Then, when I stopped the platter and went to take the thing off the spindle, it split in half widthwise, as usual.
Go Figure!
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 07-26-1999, 11:25 PM:
Yes, Technicolor's overbearing impatience is the cause of a lot of poor and inventive film handling. I know an operator who used to break down prints while they were still on screen, when Technicrapper wanted them back Thursday night. He would get a staff member, or me if I was around, to hold the failsafe up with a Q-tip. When the splice at the end of reel 4 was through the machine and on the platter post, he would snap it and wind the start of reel 5 onto another deck. Next he'd quickly take up all the film that had payed out on the floor during the process (he usually put large trash bags under the machine so the film wasn't really going on the floor). Then he would proceed to break down R1-4 while 5 & 6 played, which gave him enough time to wind at a moderate speed. Then he only had 2 reels to deal with after the show. It's sounds crazy but it really worked and the prints went out in good condition. [This message has been edited by George Roher (edited 07-26-99).]
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-26-1999, 11:43 PM:
I have broken prints down in that manner many times!!! I can do it alone, though, as I have the ability to disengage the failsafes so it doesn't matter if they drop. I usually will just let the last reel play to a different deck unless it is too short by itself to get the rest of the print done. This trick is easier to do on a STRONG platter than a Christie platter since they are so much quicker and easier to thread, but I have been able to do it without any problems on a Christie. When the film is broken down I take it downstairs only to be informed that I am giving them the wrong print number (if we have two prints). I tell them that's what they are getting since nobody specified a print number to me and they can shove it. If I am in a generous mood, I will switch cans, but that is rare. =p[This message has been edited by Joe Redifer (edited 07-26-99).]
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 08-03-1999, 10:05 PM:
Technicolor has done it again. I got a print in for a screening last night that had the heads and tails poorly attached with masking tape, and the operator had put masking tape all over the first few frames of the picture too. Technicolor called the manager and said they wanted their print back right after the show, and then changed their minds after I had broken it down rather quickly! Today a Highway print came in for a screening, and it was in mint condition even though it had been run on a platter before. Big difference!
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-03-1999, 10:55 PM:
"and it was in mint condition even though it was run on a platter before."George, platters do NOT scratch film. Operators do. Actually, running reel to reel is more dangerous to a print due to the constant stress inflicted upon the print during rewinding and brute force pulldown of the reel. With platters, there is no significant amount of stress. Tension varies during the length of the reel when running changeover. Plus, on a platter the heads and tails of each reel are not being constantly handled. The only time I would vote for a changeover setup is for a theater running a film 3 or less times, for convenience.
If you're ever in the Dallas area, I'll be happy to give you a detailed explanation and training on platters. Forgive me if you didn't intend for your wording to come out as it did, but it clearly sounded like platters "could not" run film without damage. That is absolutely not true at all.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-04-1999, 02:57 PM:
Way back when I was working in this multi and we had ET open there on two screen both played the print for 6 months. The #1 screen had a pair of Vic10's running reel to reel and the second one matched the rest of the complex with Vic8's and ORC platters
At the end of 6 months the reel to reel print was in far better shape than the plattered print. If the tension on the take up and feed reel is kept properly adjusted, and rewind is limited to 1/2 the running time and rewound tight prints don't show much wear.
The theatre also used drypur rollers (sillyputty rollers that long predate PTR's) to keep the print clean.
When properly maintained and run most reel to reel operation causes very little wear. Last summer we ran Titanic in 70 on reels for 3 months at Ontario Place and the print left here with no marks. It was cleaned with drypurs on the rewind every show and with PTR's on each projector
In our 3d theatre we used to have here at Ontario Place during the summer it was not uncommon to run 1200-2000 passes on each print of our 70mm 3d films and it was allways on reels not platters. And that was on what was probably the crudest 70mm machines ever built the wassmans.
These prints were in some cases sold to other establishments and are still probably playing
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-1999, 03:10 PM:
I have no doubt there are plenty of good changeover operators out there who keep their equipment in top aligned state. Unfortunately, I do not know any. All the ones I've seen fail to add extra head and tail leader to each reel and end up with dirt accumulation at the start and end of each reel. Also, they all exhibited cinch marks from rewinding/transporting. Personally, I add 25 feet of framing mylar to the head leader and 25 feet of clear film to the tail leader of each reel on a changeover show. That is the only real way to keep the print perfectly clean reel to reel. Perhaps I am too picky in terms of dirt, but if any is visible at all is is unacceptable to me. The print must be as clean as a DVD....and 70mm is cheating when discussing dirt accumulation. There is less of a blowup and any dirt will not project, or as large.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-04-1999, 05:04 PM:
I couldn't resist the 70mm pont but Et was 35mm
But our 3d show ran every 45min on a 30 minute film approx 4000' of 70mm film plus a 35mm mag audio track on the dubber so there was a lot of hurried threading to thread the 2 70mm machines and the dubber and then interlock the hole mess and then start rewinding the previous show
There are still a couple of operators in the Toronto local that take my name in vain because I wouldn't install either loop cabinets or platters
To bad
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-1999, 06:58 PM:
Loop cabinets are great.
Platters are great.
But those endless loop platters must be destroyed!
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 08-04-1999, 11:53 PM:
Brad, I think you misunderstood me, or my words were poorly chosen. I have run prints for many months on a platter without any scratches accumulating, so you are absolutely correct. Actually, I have run platters the overwhelming majority of my time in booths and the two screenings I referred to in my post were run at a platter house. I was griping about the quality of fellow platter operators, especially when faced with a Technicolor rush job.