As far as I go, I MUCH prefer the Strong/Potts platters at least 6 to 1 over the Christie. The Strong AP with the phase control brains (not microswitch) are literally 99.999% reliable. I have never worked with the microswitch decks.
I like how the deck on the Strong is smooth and curved, so that if film rubs against the deck during take-up or even build-up, the print is undamaged. We had a platter where every show the film would run against the deck during takeup and we never ever had a platter scratch. The edges on the Christie deck are very abrasive. They will put diagonal hash marks in your print if you are not careful. Also, somebody once pointed out to me that you can't place a Strong platter very far from the projector because it feeds out too fast. At my old theatre, we had them REALLY far away from the projector because we had to fit video projectors and lots of other stuff in that space, and it was never a concern as it ran perfectly.
If you have a problem with static, the Strong/Potts will not throw the print. This is because the brain responds very slow, which is a good thing. The Christie will try to spin as fast as possible as soon as possible in most cases when the payout is maxed. Also, there are rollers around the Strong brain that spin so your film doesn't get scratched at startup. (You have to disassemble the Christie and tamper with the innards to get it not to wrap slightly at startup).
The Christies are very unreliable, at least the ones made in the last 2 years. I have had at least 25 LED assemblies die on me or go spastic. I order new LEDs and some of them are great, others fail right out of the package. I would have preferred the Strongs anyway, but this LED situation really takes the Christies down about 5 notches. Set up a Strong initially and it is basically set forever.
The Strongs are much quicker and easier to thread, in my opinion, than the Christies. However there are a few things that I would change about the Strong/Potts to make it 100% perfect if I could: First would be to change the way the brain threads so that you could put the film through it top down like a Christie. The second would make the deck a little more solid, which would eliminate the occasional rattling noise and get risd of the "fan blades" underneath each deck (even though they have never caused me a problem). The third would be for slightly bigger rollers all around. Maybe a quieter motor but that's pushing it. I like the Potts ring. It is small, but it has never caused any kind of grief at my old theatre. It is easy to remove and there are more than 2 holes that you can insert it into on the platter deck, which adds to the ease. Plus it isn't big and bulky like the Christie ring. I have never had a film disaster caused by the Strong platter --- and yes, my Christie platters are set up properly!
Did I miss any advantages?
The Christies are quieter. They run smoother. No on/off operation. They are very easy to time and tweek speed controls. The Strong are a joke. Their version of "timing" is to push the motors closer to the platter decks, causing the motor to rub up against the unadjustable take up roller. The Strong platters are very commonly the cause of diagonal "platter" scratches due to this fact. The center rings are too small. The film must get going too damn fast for the first few minutes with these tiny rings. They also bend easily. Sure the Christie rings are heavier, but surely the weight isn't a problem for the average projectionist? The Christie rings have a nice little slot in them for the leader whereas the Strongs do not. The Christie brains are of an excellent design. No sticking the film under this bracket and through this and around that and blah, blah, blah. If for some reason you need to take the film out of a brain on a Strong, you MUST cut the film!!! On a Christie, the film can be removed from the brain without damage. The Christies are also significantly easier to thread. The Strongs have two different threading paths, depending on whether the top platter is used for take up or not. This is stupid. I see theaters constantly threading over both top takeup rollers on the post going to the lower decks, scratching the film along the way! With the Christies, it is either right or wrong! The only negative thing about Christies is the possibility of dropping the takeup cluster roller assembly too far (to the bottom of the vertical post), thus scratching. This could be easily rectified if Christie would just extend this post about 6 inches further down, but it has never been a problem with properly trained operators. On earlier Strong platters, one must set the takeup elevator to a certain notched position just to give power to the feed deck. Also, the simple act of tugging on the film will almost certainly guarantee a Strong elevator will whip to the top of the accumulator, bending shafts and rollers out of alignment...sometimes causing damage to them and always stretching the leader. And what's with the motor programming. What a pain. The Christies "program" the platter for you.
The newer Strongs of the last year or two are good (except for the lack of adjustment on the take up rollers, the fact the rollers themselves are too tiny and the stupid double rollers at the top of the tree for that top deck) but all the olders ones are junk to me. I've seen many a Strong platter toss film. Even the newer Strongs like to sink the feed down to drag across the floor! Boo hiss to Strong platters! For simplicity in platters, give me a SPECO anyday!
Keep extra leds for your Christie platters and you've got the best.
[This message has been edited by Brad Miller (edited 08-01-1999).]
We used to have a guy who worked in our booth who loved the hell out of Christie platters, even while working with Strongs. That was until he left our theatre and started working for the company part time at different theatres. Then he came back to me one day and said "Y'know, those Strongs aren't that bad! I just had a Christie throw Gone With the Wind"
You can't keep enough spare LEDs around for the Christies. I've had at least 25 go bad on me. More to come, I'm sure! Support from Christe is minimal. If I had a platter that had 3 parts that kept failing, you bet I;d call it inferior (and do).
Yes, I have worked with the microswitch, phase control and digital/self-calibrating Strongs. The microswitch units are crap. The phase controls are decent and the digital ones are pretty good. But I'll still take a Christie any day. Your theater is pretty new. Sounds like you got a batch of "lemon" leds. With every product, there are good years and bad years (check out the Consumer Reports magazines for cars). I can remember about 10 years ago, Christie switched to a different type of motor. I can't remember the specifics, but they were green, to match the colums. Those motors were a joke and Christie soon went back to the Bodine motors. As to the leds, I have only had 4 fail (granted, all in the last year from a 3 year old complex) but if you are having such monstrous amounts of failures, there is something ELSE wrong there.
If Christie won't help you, why don't you write a letter to Box Office and Film Journal magazines detailing everything you have records of, including the reps at Christie you spoke with for publication in their "letters to the editor" column. If the list would be too long (apparently so) then post it all here on the forum and invite other forum members to reply with only Christie problems they have encountered, making sure they include years of manufacture and such. Then send a short version of that letter to Box Office and Film Journal tipping their readers off to the information on the forum, from the real world.
I'll bet whoever you've been speaking to at Christie will suddenly take an interest in solving your problems. It's dirty, but if they won't help...
One of my Zetrons was a five deck, and when a print on the top deck was being moved into the opposite house, I would just shuttle the print platter to platter. It would only take 20 minutes to zip the whole feature down to a lower deck and I avoided having to climb a ladder and yank off the print. I know this trick can supposedly be done with Christies too, but they are not fast enough to make it worthwhile.
Also I liked plugging the make-up table directly into whichever platter motor I was using. I blew up a Christie table once by plugging it into the platter post the wrong way. I know that's a stupid thing to do, but it happened when I was new to Christies.
The Christies I've run have all had similar problems. The take up creeps, the pay out creeps, the platters spin constantly without film on them. A cinema technician (a good one) re-timed and serviced one of my Christie's about 4 different times while I was with General Cinema. And a day or two later, all 3 decks would begin spinning for no reason again and I'd have to leave it shut off until show start. The one thing about Christies that I really like is what Brad pointed out about not having to cut the film to take it out of the center feed.
All in all, I guess the main reason I prefer the Zetron/Strong design is that I don't have any nightmares associated with those machines. Only good memories.
I have written to Box Office magazine before and they even wrote back and said they would publish it "when they have room" because they rarely publish letters. They never did (at least I don't think that they did). I don't think those mags would publish such letters because they don't want to piss off their advertisers. Seriously, have you ever seen a negative word written in either mag? I have not. They just write what the advertiser tells them to write. They are not really serious magazines for professionals. Plus, I can't afford the $100 or so a year it costs to suscribe (we don't get it at the theatre). I've seen more information (and better info) about the cinema industry in WideScreen Review.
But I am entitled to my opinion, and here it is:
For a cheap little platter I have installed many Tecco usnits and they have had probably the fewist repair callbacks of any
just my two cents worth
As to the magazines, if they won't publish negative information, post it here. Give details if there is a product or company out there who won't back their goods. 90% of all people who read this forum never post. I'm sure theater owners, collectors and others in the industry who frequent this site would like to know if there is a bad product (or batch of) or a certain representative to NOT deal with. It will probably make all the difference in their purchasing decisions when they build or upgrade a theater. This forum is growing daily with industry people. Sooner or later, a company in question is going to have to bite the bullet and make good on their products if word gets out via this forum or whatever. If I hadn't worked with these machines side by side, I would most certainly want to know the pros and cons of each. What better way than to find a pro-Strong guy and a pro-Christie guy!
I'll be in Denver later this year. I'll come by and calibrate your platters. If I can't get them to perform as all the other AW3s I've ran into, I will change sides. However, I feel it is something in the calibration not set right. The Christie machines are more of an "operator's" platter than the Strong. They do require attention once a year to the timing. The led thing is so new, it is hard to decide just how big a problem it is, being that it only takes less than 5 minutes to drop another one in and retime. The one thing you cannot do is set up a Christie and just run it. If that's what you're looking for, go with a SPECO.
It is/was supposed to have one motor connected to a single vertical shaft that powered all three decks. The feed control was nothing more than a brake that stopped the platter when the film activated the feed arm.
I don't have experience with anything other than Potts Alpha, Christie AW3, and Speco LP-270. I told the guy how much Speco platters p*ssed me off and his response was that I should be glad I don't have to use an Eprad. Just the horror stories he told me about them make my skin crawl!
People have told me bad things about the Potts too but I haven't had any problems. The only criticism about them that I have is that you have to lock the "yo-yo" into the up position before you thread then it always comes unlocked when you try to pull the film out. It only rises to the level of "Pain in the neck", though. You just have to be careful.
With that in mind, loading speed really isn't a factor.
Loading speed is important if Tecnicolor/Airborn is waiting in your theatre lobby to pick up a film.
Let her rip!
As to the Strong trick, that can be done on ANY* platter! All that must be done is to load up the first half of the film onto the deck, thread it and then make the splice joining the last half onto the first half and start the show. The trick on a Christie is to take the belt off of the drive motor on the make up table. Also, never do this trick where there is more film on the reel than platter. (That should be obvious.) Also on startup, the operator should spin the reel of film by hand so there is slack until everything is up and rolling, then slowly let it pull the film off the reel itself. But again, that can be done with ANY platter.
*NOTE: never attempt this on an older Strong platter with the microswitch or any other with a straight ON/OFF payout, as the difference in speed will dump the print. The trick works fine on Christies or the newer Strongs.
Of course they are not perfect. My complaints: They get warped easily. But, as Joe mentioned in the initial post to this thread, they are smooth and non-abrasive, so platter scratches are rare. Also, they can be difficult to clean sometimes. Certain solutions will leave a noticeable film on the platter deck. This has happened to me with standard glass cleaner. The best thing I have found to use is 409. Another complaint is (as I think someone already mentioned in this thread) that if you pull the film to quickly while threading, the elevator (yo-yo) becomes dissengaged and will drop. Even a slight degree of tension will do this. My final complaint is that the Christie "Bevan-Poo's" do not stick. Even when they are cleaned, I cannot get them to stick properly.
Overall, I would say they are a good machine. But I would like to work with Christies. I won't knock 'em 'til I try 'em.
For clarification, what is the difference between Strong platters and Potts? Also, does anyone know anything about strong DMC platters? There is one theatre in my district that has them, but I have never worked projection at that theatre, so I don't know anything about them. I have never seen them at any other theater. thx.
The name, and maybe the color of the rollers (every Potts I have seen has white rollers as compared to the Strong's black). The Strong platters are made either by Potts, or under license from Potts.
Aaron
!!!! Have you heard of job security? Say hello to Bob Wall......The micro conversions for them made that machine alot more reliable, providing they are the soft spring microswitches.
In one of our theaters (a six-plex) that was new, I installed 6 new Strong platters with these nice smooth pay-outs. Every payout head failed in a span of about about 2 years. I converted them to Microswitches, and had no problems for the remaining time with the exception of that funky mode selector switch Strong used. (Lost 3 of them.)
I have two linear feed pay-out heads that just recently took a dump right in the middle of a movie on two separate machines. One was so weak, I contemplated powering up the pay-out with the MUT. That head was then taken out of service.
The other one ran OK when I hung a big heavy staple gun on the dancer. At the end of that run, Likewise, I took the Pay-out head out of service.
Bob Wall and the late Cowboy Plummer operated P&W service which handled all the Cobb projects for many years.....Cowboy is no longer with us and I miss the walks we did at numerous trade shows sizing up the new hardware....Regal bought out Cobb and Bob became part of senior management... Bob is a low key solid type of guy and when I saw him at the last Show West convention he remarked that Regal required his services more than ever to keep things together......
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
Take notice of the older platters that used roller bearings on the rollers!
I personally like metal rollers over the nylon/plastic! Much easier to clean plus aids in eliminating static electricity!
The plastic/nylon roller swivels can and will crack!
Platter design is excellent high quality. But the spin forming can be much cleaner! What about painting the platter surfaces with a electric conducting paint or hard anodizing?
Loose the print clamps that do nothing but scratch surfaces!
Replace brush motors with brushless sealed can motors--expensive but worth it!
Take up tension arms need a few locating pins or a machined dove tail assembly--the bolts tend to loosen up causing arm to droop.
The take up cluster needs improvement. Bolts that hold roller swivel to carrage tend to loosen up causing rollers to drop down and possible film rubbing on platter surface.
Platter lights are almost useless--need more wattage!
Need to redesign and beef up MUT!
Use pinch rollers on take off because print will/can jump off rollers if there is any slack.
Redesign pay-out heads!
REALLY?? You mean that parts are once again availible for CFS Supers and NSP3's?!?
-Aaron
I will, had lunch with him 2 days ago cought up on some old times.
As far as the platter trick goes, I just could not help myself..
Ken,
Does Jerry do your service?
Actually the platters at where I worked were in excellent condition and the booth was spotless!
Many of the things I listed are from an engineering standpoint.
Overall, I think that this machine is ok. But there are many differences between the way goods are made now--and the way they were made decades ago! Keep in mind that todays products are made with a design obselences, and that we are a throw a way society! Products need to be made cheaply and quickly for companies to survive!
Take notice of the older platters that used roller bearings on the rollers!
No need to. Platters that use bearing in their rollers tend to have issues with the film flying off (not talking about Strongs here since they have thick flanges) and they like to overspin and dump film onto the floor if the projector to platter distance is too great.
I personally like metal rollers over the nylon/plastic! Much easier to clean plus aids in eliminating static electricity!
Clean? I've ran the same sets of platters for stretches of years and have never had the need to clean them. If you keep your prints clean, the rollers will stay clean. Pretty simple. Also, I think Kodak's work on anti-static coatings go far beyond the benefits that metal rollers provide.
The plastic/nylon roller swivels can and will crack!
Really? I've never seen one crack. Again, this sounds like operator abuse.
Platter design is excellent high quality. But the spin forming can be much cleaner! What about painting the platter surfaces with a electric conducting paint or hard anodizing?
I have no problems with the current platter deck. This seems more of an opinion than anything else.
Loose the print clamps that do nothing but scratch surfaces!
Well duh! I'll certainly agree with you there. Print clamps shouldn't even be in a booth unless prints have to be carried down stairways. Even then, they aren't required. There are better ways to move prints.
Replace brush motors with brushless sealed can motors--expensive but worth it!
Again, I've not had a problem. Just how long did you work for this theater that had motor problems? How long were they open before you started working there? The benefits are not worth the added expense.
Take up tension arms need a few locating pins or a machined dove tail assembly--the bolts tend to loosen up causing arm to droop.
Ever heard of a lock washer? Again, I've not had this problem.
The take up cluster needs improvement. Bolts that hold roller swivel to carrage tend to loosen up causing rollers to drop down and possible film rubbing on platter surface.
There should have been a nut on the other side of the bolt, but if for some reason that's not enough for your needs, there's always that lock washer. Also, the tall metal rail that holds the takeup cluster has two bolts that can be loosened and the entire rail raised or lowered.
Platter lights are almost useless--need more wattage!
Take the cover off. I have good night vision and have no problem with them the way they come out of the factory, but I can see where some people might want more light.
Need to redesign and beef up MUT!
No they don't. The classic MK makeup table is the best design out there. What is the problem? It doesn't rip film on and off of the platter fast enough for you? The day Christie stops selling their standard MUTs, I will stop recommending and installing their platters.
Use pinch rollers on take off because print will/can jump off rollers if there is any slack.
You are kidding me, right? I've not had this problem. Again, this sounds like an operator error. Those rollers can be threaded with a huge loop of slack between the two outer rollers and the film will STILL run just fine and dandy.
Redesign pay-out heads!
NO! They are perfect as they are. No other payout head is as easy to thread, un-thread, and the slight bend of the film required to enter the head helps to split layers of film in static conditions.
Your booth may have been waxed, buffed and overall spotless, but there's something else going on. Someone in that booth has abused those platters without damaging the cosmetics of them, or you have had a tinkerer. The AW3 has been in use for a damned long time. If these problems were commonplace, Christie would have had to redesign it a long time ago. As it stands, it is the most popular platter on the market and is the benchmark for comparison to all others.
Whats eatin' you--you really want to argue--HA HA!
OK
Before I started working at this theater, some yutz used lubriplate to lube the pay-out heads and roller shafts! What a mess this made! I ended up cleaning all of this crap off (what a pain!) and relubed with clear silicon bicycle chain lube. Much cleaner and better! But the payout rollers still dont roll worth a damn--and they love to squeek! Constantly cleaning these is a royal pain! I have seen roller bearings in action with the wider flange rollers and I like them much better!
As for the motors: The brush caps need to be removed at least every 6 months to blow carbon dust out to prevent the motor from possibly shorting! Another pain in the ass! Christie uses those FASCO motors that have cast composite magnets and not stacked steel ones. On one occasion, I went to blow the motor out only to find that the magnet was cracked/defective and blew fragments up into the communitator/rotor! Had to replace motor! Can motors are more precise and much better!
What about that bad lot of hockey pucks that Christie purchased and ended up having to replace!?
Do you know what spin forming is!? Look at how the bottom portion of the platter deck is formed--an amature can do better work! And yes, I have spun formed parts before!
Payout heads: Heaven help you if for some reason all three rollers do not roll evenly! The nylon fingers are a pain to clean and form flat spots over time because they do not rotate.
If there is any film slack between the payout head and the tree rollers, the film can and will come off of the roller and possibly ride on roller flanges causing scratches. Thats why I recommended pinch rollers! I was in the habit of inspecting all 10 machines 2-3 times during each show to make sure that the film was tracking correctly!
The mut legs, roller brackets and post can surely be beefed up!
I got used to retightening hardware in certain places--even though correct locking hardware was used--just the design construction of the part!
This is overall a good product that is easy to thread--but can use some quality improvements.
This was a complete Christie booth. Projectors, soundheads, platters, make-up tables, commodes, you name it.
I'll have to bone up on this crap. Looks like I am going to be the dude to keep it running.
There were cool things that I liked about the Strong platter and there are good things about the Christie as well. For one thing I like the larger center ring that comes standard with the Christies (you can even get a bigger one). This makes payout even smoother by not needing to spin so fast at startup. I don't necessarily agree with the way Christie says the platters should be timed... Brad has a way to get them to pay out much smoother, thus never throwing prints even with horrible static at the end of the movie and no FilmGuard. The platter simply cannot speed up and slow down fast enough to toss the print.
I've never used a Kinoton platter... I'd really like to, though.
1. Squeaky rollers. Once they have started squeaking, it is time to clean them. The lubricant is probably gone at this point and you have a build up of dirt on the shaft. It takes about 30 minutes to clean and lubricate all the rollers. If you are carefull about how much lubriplate you use. They will stay quiet and rolling for at least a year before they start to squeak again.
2. Film jumping. I believe that the jumping of the film off the first roller coming from the payout head is because the splice was not made tight. There may be excess tape that causes it to ride up the roller flange and then it either go towards or away from the tree.
3. MUT's. The only modification that I have made was to purchase the roller assy that adjusts to which platter you are using and add it to the bottom of the post by removing the "stock" roller and turning the new one upside down. It is much smoother running.
4. Brad has mentioned in a previous thread the the take up cluster bar could be better. If you don't lock it when using the bottom platter, you could scratch your print because the cluster is actually lower than the platter. My only wish is for a slight back tension when running to the platter to ensure no bouncing against the deck.
Paul