This is topic Christie CA21 automation problems. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-12-1999, 10:18 PM:
I don't know how many of you out there have experience with Christie's CA21 automation. I really love it, but it has developed a problem that is really annoying, and I wonder if it has happened to anybody else? I sent Christie an e-mail a few minutes ago, and they have always been very helpful at resolving problems that I have had with it in the past, so hopefully they can help me out again. To save my fingers the task of retyping the problem, here is a copy of the letter that I sent to Christie. I'll let everybody know how it turns out.
Hello,
I am currently having considerable trouble with my Christie CA21 automations. They are all still under warranty. The problem is that they are not functioning properly when the failsafes are down or drop. What follows are some examples to help isolate the problem. I believe that a new EPROM must be made to fix the problem.
- Failsafes do not seem to be recognized by the CA21 100% of the time. For example, a movie will start and the platter take up will fail. One of two things will happen. In the best case scenario, the projector stops and the house lights come up. But the alarm does not sound anywhere in the building. We have a 16 plex and if a platter fails on the other side of the building, we need to know. The status panel does not display that the failsafes are down. It just looks as if nothing has happened. Usually it is the customers who do the informing. Every once in a blue moon the alarm will sound, and the status panel will reflect that. Worst case scenario is that the movie starts, platter fails to take up, and the automation does not see the failsafes at all, continuing to motor the film onto the floor! This has happened. Yes, the failsafes are properly hooked up and I can recreate the problem on any automation in the building. When the automation is in "exit" mode, raising and dropping the failsafes is displayed immediately on the status panel, so there is an obvious software glitch.
-Another bad thing is that it takes 9 seconds after the show has started before the CA21 even begins to look for the failsafes. In my opinion, the show should not even try to start if even one failsafe is down. The result of this 9 second delay (when the failsafes are actually recognized by the CA21) is tons of leader and film on the floor.
-Another big issue is that of power surges. Every once in awhile the power will go out for 4 or 5 seconds and come back on. This is enough to stop the platters, but not enough to stop the CA21 from telling the projector to keep motoring when the power comes back on. Yes, tons of film on the floor, even though the failsafes are down. I have discovered that (through tests I have performed) that when the CA21 is running a program and is shut off, it must be shut off for at least 10 seconds or so before turning the unit back on. If you turn the unit back on before this amount of time, it will tell the projectors to keep going. This is bad. The CA21 needs to shut off the projectors and exit whatever program it is running if power is disconnected for even a split second. The alarm should also sound. This wouldn't be a problem if the CA21 was able to recognize the failsafes.
Basically what it comes down to is this--- the CA21 should not even try to run if the failsafes are down, but it does. And if the failsafes drop for any reason, the CA21 needs to know to stop at once, and an alarm would be nice.
Hopefully we can nip this thing in the bud and get it fixed. I am willing to give you as much information as possible and run any tests that you need me to so that we can remedy this problem. I'm sure that you are already wanting more information. But just so you don't have to ask, here are the sequence of events on our CA21's:
1. Motor Start (timed start)
2. (Cue on leader) Auto Start, lights mid, volume adjust.
3. Lights down. Dolby Digital (if applicable)
4. Volume adjust up
5. Lights mid
6. Auto stop, volume adjust.
7. Timed delay for worklights
8. Lights mid
9. EXIT
We do not motor the leader to the '9' mark when we thread. That is pointless. Just so you know how we do things. Lately the platters have not been failing, but this is a major issue anyway, and needs to be resolved. Thank you in advance for your time and effort.
Joe Redifer
Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-13-1999, 12:42 AM:
Joe, I am having the same problem with my 3Q's not sounding alarms or stopping machines when the takeup fails. If Christie tells you what is going on, please let me know. I am running 3Q's with QX-10 cue expanders and FM-35 failsafes.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-14-1999, 07:46 PM:
Christie is investigating the problem, so it could take awhile to come up with any workable solutions. I have not heard of your automation before... it is interesting that it has the same problem! Who is the manufaturer of your automation?
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-14-1999, 07:51 PM:
Actually, an aquaintence of mine who the rest of the world knows by the name "Gary Stanley" suggested that perhaps my automation (and perhaps the 3Q as well) was desined with reel to reel projectors in mind. If you had a momentary power surge, you would want things to keep going. And the failsafes would only be used in case of a film break. The automation was designed and built in Austrailia by Pennywise, so who knows what they think down there. (I am not picking on your country, Stephen Jones, just Pennywise).
Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-15-1999, 01:25 PM:
The 3Q is manufactured by Christie. It is their cheaper, not computerized automation (no computers, just a bunch of relays). From what Christie told me, odds are the film motion sensor is not hooked up.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-15-1999, 01:45 PM:
That's odd. I would try running some tests to see if each automation has the same problem. I have heard of lots of problems with film motion sensors from every manufacturer.. I don't like 'em. Failsafes work just fine in most scenarios (if the automation is looking at them).
Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 09-15-1999, 07:24 PM:
Didnt think that you were picking on Australia Joe, I have had minor problems with the early models of the pennywise automation system in 1989-1990 with it not reading faults from failsafes lights not going down or coming up xenons not striking,programes stopping . The software was altered by the techs and some other ajustments made what they did I cant recall at the moment. They worked perfectly after that and the later versions of the system I have used in the last few years havent given any trouble at all and I still think its one of the best automation system I have used.------------------
Posted by Anthony Matarazzo (Member # 63) on 09-16-1999, 06:55 AM:
The person who designed the CA21 was a women here in Australia. She was a projectionist then worked here way up to a Tech. Now she is a chief in a Brisbane multiplex ( the first in Australia ) . I never used CA21, so I can't tell you what they like, but I can tell you about the AMX Multimation 2.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-16-1999, 03:28 PM:
Anthony, how do you know this? I hope she got some good money for her design. Tell her to come up here and fix my automation 
Actually I don't know if it is the automation itself, or the EPROM that is programmed into it (that can be replaced). Christie programmed our EPROM. But then again, it could be something else entirely! Ug.
Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 09-16-1999, 09:39 PM:
From what I understand the Pennywise easymation unit used by Village Roadshow was devised by a projectionist (Mike Densly)who designed the basic system and the manufacturing and further developments carried out by pennywise in association with Village as they wanted a automation system that would run sveral screens with only a couple of projectionists. Someone else here may know more about this than I do and I may stand corrected.The actual projector used to assist in the development of this sytem was a Kinoton F.P 30. This projector was installed in a 7 screen plex in Hobart Tasmania where I worked for 8 yrs useing of course the Easymation system.------------------
Posted by Mark Tan-Wanklyn (Member # 155) on 09-22-1999, 12:04 PM:
Has anyone at Christie (USA) replied to your mail as yet. Please let me know as if they have not done so, I shall pass you mail on to the Field Service Engineers here in Singapore for a responce.------------------
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-22-1999, 07:35 PM:
So far I have gotten just one response from Christie. Here is that response copied directly from my e-mail box:"Software engineer is investigating problem and possible solution.
Bevan"
So that is where we are right now.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-23-1999, 04:36 PM:
OK now I am talking to Pennywise, who designed the unit. Supposedly I am the only one in the USA with these automations! That's kind of cool and scary at the same time. Anyway, the tech in Austrailia e-mailed Christie about my problems, and here's what he had to say:"Bevan,
I'm looking into the "problems" and will report shortly.
Note that some of his described behaviour (or misbehaviour) is in fact
expected behaviour and that the "software glitch" mentioned for status
panels is in fact intended.
Anyway I'll go through the issues in turn, and let you know, but I accept
that a PROM change will be required for some of the issues.
Mark."
Hmmmmmmmm......
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-23-1999, 07:55 PM:
Hey Joe, your lucky. Usually the answer I get from suppliers is "Gee, that's funny, no one else has reported any problems".
The only exception was a manufacturer of a popular drive-in sound system with push-button selection for Projector 1, Non-Sync, and Projector 2. Above each of the buttons was a light, indicating which function was active.
Often, during a show, another light would come on, dimly, and the sound level would drop to one-half. When we reported it to the manufacturer, they replied "Yeah we've heard about that. If you find out what causes it, let us know".
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-24-1999, 05:22 AM:
Actually for the most part, I have had good luck dealing with manufacturers. I have run into a few who blame some other component or whatever (like Christie saying the problem with their Dolby Digital basement readers is Dolby's fault) but other than that, I've been doing pretty well with stuff like that. When a drive in my DTS unit fails, DTS sends out a whole new kit of drives! Dolby is pretty quick to fix any "screw ups" that may occur in a new product. Hell, if you have an old DA10 digital decoder, then give Dolby a call--they'll send you a DA20! Christie has done well in many other areas, and Kodak has been responsive as well. I love customer support!
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-28-1999, 01:33 AM:
Here is another update in the ongoing CA21 thread here.
It seems that Pennywise is pretty cool. I e-mailed them and discussed a few things, and their tech got back to me with the following e-mail:"Good to hear from you Joe. I appreciate your requirements and will make changes
as required. Your comment "or it will keep motoring through onto the floor
forever" is a worry. It should certainly not do that!
The software for Mann Theatres had quite a few changes from the normal Christie
software and maybe some of these changes have affected filmbreak.
In the next day or two I will set up a CA21 with Mann software and do some
testing/changes and let you know.
Best regards,
Mark Justice."
Joe here again. Now is that class or what? Let's hear it for Pennywise!
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-06-1999, 10:38 PM:
I haven't heard back from Mark yet. Is time slower in Austrailia? Anyway, I think these things are getting worse. It seems that the failsafe doesn't really matter anymore. Just yesterday, a movie started and the platter failed to take up at the show start for one reason or another (doesn't really matter why at this point). The failsafes dropped and kept spooling film onto the floor. Luckilly only the ads hit the floor before I JUST HAPPENED to walk by and notice. This had happened before, but it prompted me to start playing with the failsafes. I found out something interesting, as is explained in this letter to Mark of Pennywise (cc'd to Bevan Wright of Christie)Mark,
Here is something else about the CA-21 that I have discovered that is very interesting: If the failsafes are down, the movie will still start up normally, read all cues and do everything it's supposed to do, except stopping the projector. It does not matter if the first cue is MOTOR START or AUTOSTART, it completely ignores the failsafes. Even if I raise them and drop them nothing will happen. Of course, if a show is run in this manner, the AUTOSTOP cue will close the changeover. But when the film runs out, the projector will not stop and the changeover melts. I can replicate this on every projector. Thought you should know.
(Hopefully I can get a response out of this one. Maybe they are reprogramming the chip from scratch).
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 10-06-1999, 10:48 PM:
Joe:
Why not trade your automation in for Component Engineering TA-10 units?
Posted by Alex Mir (Member # 183) on 10-27-1999, 10:05 AM:
Hi Guys,Here's some info about the CA21 I can share...
We have been installing and servicing CA21 units since 3 years and found quite amazing things.
Basically it is a 6805 CPU with his peripherals. Very versatile, but it has the tipical problem of all the computers on industrial uses: Noise Inmunity.
On very noisy environments like the booth, the CA21 is very sensitive especially to the ignition of the bulb. On some units (more on the new ones) we saw the CA21 getting crazy while stricking the bulb.
After a lot of tests (many small capacitors on the motherboard, filters on the AC input, grounding and isolating) we found the way to minimize this: reducing the striking noise by reducing the spark gap. This reduces significantly the noise emmission and works fine !!
In reference to the behavior of the failsafe, you have to consider that there are a lot of software versions recorded on the Eproms according to different customers. Pennywise usually programs the failsafe to be active few seconds after the dowser opening, and it does not come active if the failsafe starts low (broken film).
My suggestion is that you contact directly to Mark Justice at mark@pennywise.com.au, and ask him wich changes can be made according to your requirements.
He may email you a new software version so you can record your own eproms.
If there's anything else I can help don't hesitate to contact me at Alex.Mir@Newage.com.ar