Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Do moviegoers care?

This is topic Do moviegoers care? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000239

Posted by Kenn Fong (Member # 118) on 09-16-1999, 03:03 AM:

Please don't kill me, this is an honest question... Do you pros out there get a sense that customers really notice the difference between a good print and a messed-up one? It wouldn't be your customers since I can tell the readers of this forum all take great pride in their work.

I talk to a fair number of people, and everyone is surprised to hear about cue marks, especially people who have been going to movies for thirty or forty years, so I wonder if they notice other things. And most people don't understand the difference -- and fail to see the benefits -- of letterbox vs. pan & scan.

Recently, I took my niece to see "Runaway Bride" at a monsterplex and there was a vertical scratch that ran the entire length of the movie. The print was dirty and three lab splices were left in. After two months I didn't expect it to look perfect, though.

When I mentioned this to the manager on duty, she acted surprised, although properly respectful of my complaint. This leads me to wonder if, outside of sophisticated people such as ourselves, does anyone else pay attention?

Anyway, I want you to know that I'M payng attention, and I try to always stop and mention it to the manager when I see that the projectionist or operator has taken care of the print after several weeks or months.

------------------
Kenn Fong http://qwertyuiop.net
Screenwriter's Home Page

Posted by Stephen Jones 1 (Member # 114) on 09-16-1999, 04:22 AM:

I think that maybe it's the sense of conviency that may lead people into certain Megaplexes. I pay very close attention to the presentation, usually so much that my girlfriend thinks I'm just picking at nothing. Tonight we watched Stir of Echoes, and besides being a bad movie, the presentation was terrible. The SR was SO much considerably lower than the Digital in respect to volume. The lights went down at the wrong time and the picture started half way into the first trailer and was badly out of frame. It was a flat movie and the framing was so bad that you could almost see the frame line. After about watching five minutes of trailers hoping for the projectionist to fix it, I had to get up and complain (I'm good at this, 'cause I ALWAYS do it at this particular theatre) Then after about a minute of the framing going up and down, it stopped and the 'projectionist' re-threaded it and started it again and STILL out of frame but at least this time he could move the nob enough to center the picture. This kind of thing happens all the time at this UA theatre. We go to it usually because of convience but I ALWAYS get up and complain about something that is ALWAYS wrong. And I ask my girlfriend, "Why do people pay 6.50 and settle for this crap?" "Probably because they don't know any better." Well, all I know is that a presentation complaint at my theatre is a rarity, NOT a routine. And I hope that the reason our theatre does more business than our UA competitor is because people do begin to notice things like that.

Posted by Stephen Jones 1 (Member # 114) on 09-16-1999, 04:25 AM:

BTW Kenn, I like your web address. How long did it take you to figure out that one?

I bet you just love trying to tell someone your address.

Posted by Art Averett (Member # 367) on 09-16-1999, 10:37 AM:

There are some people who do complain, but they should ask for a refund or passes if the presentation is off the screen due to operator error. Of course the "film threaders" give a bad reputation to all projectionist who care about their presentation and dedication to the audience.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-16-1999, 03:36 PM:

People at my theatre sure seem to notice if something has gone astray. If we get in a crappy print that has a scratch, people will complain. They never stop to compliment a good job, however. Although I have heard costumers saying good things about the presentation on their way out of the theatre. We don't wear uniforms, so we look like "normal" people and I can blend in pretty easilly among the crowd if I want to.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-16-1999, 05:27 PM:

Isn't it an interesting thing about being a projectionist? If you are doing you job the way you should, people can forget you exist and get lost in the story on the screen. This is the way it should be. At your best, you are "invisible".

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 09-16-1999, 05:48 PM:

In eight years of operating, I was only complemented once. It was an old man who approached the manager who in turn called me. As I came to the manager's side the old man barked in a loud and mean voice.
"Are you the projectionist!"
"Yes" I responded, kind of scared. Suddenly, his demeanor turned, he shook my hand and said, "You do a great job up there. I thought your work was perfect and because of it I loved that show."
It felt good AND ONLY CAME ONCE. Who said teaching is the only thankless job in the world today!

Posted by Kenn Fong (Member # 118) on 09-16-1999, 08:15 PM:

Yeah, Aaron. Someone once said doing a good deed is like pissing in a dark suit. When you're finished you feel warm all over, but no one knows what you've done.

Seriously, good service seems so rare nowadays I make a nuisance of myself thanking the person involved, and sometimes going to the supervisor also.

------------------
Kenn Fong
http://qwertyuiop.net
Screenwriter's Home Page

Posted by timothy johnson (Member # 83) on 09-17-1999, 10:22 AM:

My freinds and family are always surprised when I say "watch for the dot in the right corner every twenty minutes" and they respond with "I never saw that before" and you wonder if they even see a picture on the screen. These same friends and family record home movies at the slowest speed on their camcorders, precious memories at the worst quality, but it does not matter to them. Very few people in the world are "aware" of the fine details life has. Most people are living zombie consumers who have attention spans of ten seconds and are driven by animal instincts of sex, eating, and down-right complacency. I have learned as a filmmaker that most people (the general publice zombies)Are more involved with
THE STORY and not picture quality or digital sound.So why do they care (the general public) if it's video or IMAX?

Posted by Erika Hellgren (Member # 22) on 09-17-1999, 05:15 PM:

I think on a subconscious level, people notice dirt, scratches and imperfections. Some non-technical moviegoers were interviewed after seeing the digital Star Wars presentation and stated that they liked that it was a clean presentation - there was no dirt and no scratches.

I agree very much with Rick that if we are doing our job properly, the customers shouldn't even know we exist. I have always believed that the movie-going experience involves forgetting about the real world and sinking into the movie. If the presentation is as perfect as it can be, and there are no distractions then that allows the audience to experience the movie on it's own terms. It's hard to like a movie that has a huge green scratch down the middle, or is missing footage from a film break, or has scratchy, quiet mono sound. If I finish a whole shift without ever having received a complaint, I give myself a pat on the back for a job well done. I have never received a compliment from a customer, but I almost take THAT as a compliment

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-17-1999, 05:52 PM:

Good point about how a good film presentation should be "invisible" to the audience.

Strangely (or, perhaps, not so strangely), the only customer who ever complimented me was a retired projectionist...

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-01-2001, 06:26 PM:

Just before christmas we did the invitational cast and crew screening of Dracula 2000 here at Cinesphere and when it was over the coordinator came up to thank us for a flawless presentation

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-01-2001, 07:44 PM:

First, I think most people just don't have the "mental bandwidth"... Not that they are stupid, they just don't SEE things. That's why we; the technicians and projection people; are who we are, and do what we do. We just have the ability to pick up details that other people don't. Things that we see as HUGE problems barely make a "blip" on other peoples' radar.

This is why you shouldn't have "manager-run" booths. They are already overloaded with the day-to-day aspects of the business. It's just too much to ask for them to do the important job that they have taken on AND ask them to do anohter equally important job. Managers have skills and abilities that I could never dream of having. They can look at the day's paperwork and make a conclusion about how well the business is doing or whether they'll need to order more popcorn. It's all gobbledeygook to me. On the other hand I can walk up to a projector and tell if it's running right just by the SOUND of it. People will look stunned and wonder how the hell I knew. To tell the truth I don't know how I knew. I just DID.

Essentially, what this means is that OTHER people DEPEND on us to do our jobs RIGHT!

My second point is that people nowadays seem to EXPECT poor service and will actually go back to places where they have had poor service and LIKE it!

Read the following article from Scientific American magazine entilted "New and Not Improved"

http://www.sciam.com/1999/1099issue/1099inbrief.html

In short, I think we are seeing something that is "endemic" to modern culture. I don't think there is any way that people who profess the superiority of "digital movies" are going to solve this. (If that's what the "powers that be" think they are trying to do by pusing digital projection down people's throats) They are actually BUYING INTO this!

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-01-2001, 09:04 PM:

Well, I do beleive some people care about the film they are watching and will complain if there are scratches in the film. But as a whole these people are few and far between. Sometimes we get phone calls about a perticular movie and people will ask if it is playing in a stadium theater. So that tells me that all they care about is sitting on stairs not how the movie looks. I have to agree with Randy. A manager should not have to run the booth and do his work to. Although the manager should be trained and able to run the booth if needed. When I mean trained I mean trained not given a crash course in threading.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-01-2001, 09:22 PM:

It has been said most people don't complain. They just don't come back! (especially if another theater a short distance away has a much nicer presentation.)

Posted by Rachel Carter (Member # 693) on 01-01-2001, 11:47 PM:

Speaking of a "Manager Run" booth, thats what I do. It's very true that it can be hard to do both and you are not able to give as much attention to the little things doing both. But I love what I do, thats why I do it. It's great doing both, your not stuck in the booth but if you need to get away, THERE IT IS!

Anyway, I do believe people pay attention to the presentation of a movie. I have gotten many compliments on my presentation (mostly from regulars that come every week or so). When you are both "Upstairs" and "Downstairs" you get to hear what the customers think of the place and how the movie is run.

Its just really funny that when people say "Tell the projectionist....blah blah blah" and I say "I am the projectionist" I've acually had people fight with me about really being the projectionist and saying, "I know there is someone upstairs DON'T LIE TO ME, your name tag says Manager NOT Projectionist"!

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 01-02-2001, 12:19 AM:

Whoever said that companies should not have *manager/operators* has never worked for one of the major players then.. LOL..

I agree that there THE manager should not have to actually *run* the booth, but THE manager should be able to do all aspects of running the booth, including daily operations, buildup, breakdown, trouble shooting problems, and repair of common problems with the given equipment in the booth.

Of course, teaching anyone all this, PLUS the added duties of floor level management, is a most troublesome thing to do...

I know... I've been doing this for too long.. It's just sad that more people don't CARE about what they do for a living....

------------------
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 01-02-2001, 05:17 AM:

Paul, I agree. Many people are not vocal about presentation problems. They just stay away and wait "for it to come on TV" or visit another theater.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-02-2001, 09:26 AM:

I didn't say that managers couldn't be in the booth AT ALL... I just meant that a manager shouldn't have to do "his" job and be expected to run the booth.

There needs to be at least one person within earshot of the projectors pretty much at all times. You can't take care of customers, clean theatres, babysit all the ushers AND run the booth simultaneously! (Unless you are Flash Gordon, of course! )

Qualification: I know that there are some smaller theatres where only one or two people run the whole kit & kaboodle. I'm talking about the average Googolplex.

Posted by Erik Schill (Member # 675) on 01-02-2001, 11:15 AM:

I think a lot of people notice problems but never say anything. When we had "The Cell" one of our projectionists who is a complete dumbass (no longer working upstairs thank god) threateded it off one of the rollers DURING THE FREAKING RUN DOWN!!! so we had this ungodly scratch from head to tail right down the middle of the screen, yet we had the print for 6 weeks and no one said anything about it. Plus on one of our prints of "What Woman Want" the credits were on backwards after the film crashed on someone and I guess their brain stopped working for a few minutes and they didn't line up the soundtrack. The part that makes this even stranger is that it was like that for 3 days, days while I was working downstairs, and our fearless leader Jim Reilly had off, and in this time not one person said anything, and the 3 people who worked upstrairs did nothing about it, when asked why they did nothing 2 said they didn't know (total BS) and the other one said he didn't know how (an excuse that really gets me mad). Yet on the other hand when there is a bad light cue people come out to complain with lightning speed, the tiny things they notice and bitch, yet it the DTS doesn't work they'll sit there for 30 minutes with no sound then come out and ask for a ferund when the movie is over

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 01-02-2001, 02:51 PM:

Patrons do notice quality presentations. They rarely tell you. And they know very well,if it wasn't worth the admission. They either don't tell you. They stop returning, taking another way of film reception in the future. Most of this industry has failed to bind people, to create loyality. It's not the ammount of BAD movies we see, they have always been present, it is the combination, BAD film and BAD presentation, which then is preferred to be seen in one's home cinema. In good sound and perfect picture.
And most car stereos found as a standard package on new cars sound better than many screens I know. Is there a reason to see a film in analog, when it's in even in AC3 on free TV?

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 01-02-2001, 03:11 PM:

When 70mm left the cinemas so did the trill of going to the movies. I hate going to the movies today, the kids are so rude and bring there VIDEO-MANNERS along with them.

I very rarely see or hear people complaining, mostly with out reason; like this film sucks, give me a refund etc. Why don't moviegoers complain when the picture is framed wrong?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-02-2001, 06:31 PM:

Well, if the projectionist would be on the ball, there would not be any mis-frames to begin with. Like I said before, they usually don't complain. They just don't come back! Would you come back if you saw a bunch of jerks consistantly screwing up a movie? Not in a pig's butt!! (sorry, kind of gross - but it is very frustrating when the theater does not care about what they are doing.)

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 01-02-2001, 10:13 PM:

Paul G. Thompson said:

quote:
It has been said most people don't complain. They just don't come back!

That's long been an old saying, also: "Bad publicity can't hurt you, but a bad show will."

I think the important point is that audience members don't have the vocabulary or technical knowledge of critical points to verbalize what they don't like. But even if they can't tell you what's in tune or not, they'll sure prefer to go to a professional symphony concert than any school band concert. They'll enjoy one, & avoid the other (unless their kids are in it...)

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-02-2001, 11:14 PM:

I worked in a single screen college theatre for three years. Two of them were pre-FilmGuard years.

We got most of our prints from New Yorker and Kit Parker. Of course, they were all pretty trashed.

I would often find myself talking to people after the show and the subject would come up... "OH! You're the projectionist?! Nice Job!" I really hated to tell them that I didn't like the film because it was dirty and scratched. Nobody really seemed to notice but me.

After the first year I got a Work Study student in the booth. We would sit in the balcony, near the booth door and screen the movie and have chips and soda while we watched. We had a rule... whenever you saw a cue dot you had to go up and check the film. At first I would have to tap the student(s) and say, "Cue Dot!" After a while they started learning how to predict when cue dots were comming.... because the heads and tails of the reels were always FREAKIN' FILTHY! (A phenomenon we dubbed "The two-minute warning")

What I was seeing was that their "mental bandwidth" was increasing as the year progressed. They were learning to see things that they hadn't noticed before.... Without being told.
These were all smart people to begin with, so it wasn't an intelligence issue. That's why I call it "bandwidth".

Then, in the third year we got FilmGuard. NO two-minute warning. Absolutely NONE, except on the worst-of-the-worst prints. I found that some people in the audience noticed the improvement and some didn't. When I pointed it out to the ones that didn't the answer would be, "Oh! Really? Come to think of it, you're right!" They were "seeing" the improvement but it wasn't registering on their radar.

Here's where it gets wierd: The Work Study people started to miss the two-minute warning for about a month. Then they started to predict reel changes again. You can sometimes tell by an indellible scratch or something. Other times you just "KNOW" by the way the film is edited that it's comming to the end of a reel. They were starting to "see" things they hadn't before. Again, bandwidth was increasing before my eyes.

That's the way I think MOST of your average "Joe Blow" movie goers are. They see it but they don't "SEE" it!

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-02-2001, 11:30 PM:

This is the honest truth. I have had people aproach me and ask if they could see how the movies work. Usualy they have their kids with them and want to show them. So I take them up to the booth and they are like suprised. The first thing out of their mouth is That's the movie, I thought you all used video. So what can you say.

Posted by Rachel Carter (Member # 693) on 01-03-2001, 12:30 AM:

That's very true Daryl, its happened many times to me.

Posted by Greg Kristopik (Member # 594) on 01-03-2001, 12:46 AM:

Ok, why is it that whenever a cue for the lights is either missing or late, people notice IMMEDIATELY and run out and act all crazy?

Example: On our print of All the Pretty Horses, one of projectionist's assembled it, placing the first cut approximately one minute into the actual show because she thought it was the attached trailer when there was none (at least on our print). In the two days it was like this, I must have handled at least a dozen complaints about the lights not going down, even though they were to go down a minute later.

Guests notice this, but not an ugly green scratch running down the middle of the screen or bad framing, etc...

I guess if its on the screen, they don't notice it, but if it affects them and their surroundings (lights, temperature) they notice.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 01-03-2001, 02:43 AM:

Its funny... We tend to get one customer request that to me says that the person is far too accustomed to seeing films at a nearby Hoyts location.

Customer: Can you have them turn the lights down in *such and such* movie?
Staff memeber: Are the previews still playing?
Customer: Yes...
Staff member: Don't worry, the lights will dim once the previews end.
…and the customer will walk away, looking a bit puzzled…

Hey, all my cue readers actually work, and I put all my cues on the films.
I can't say that the same is true of that nearby Hoyts location.
Heh, I won't even get into the topic of their booth staff's *framing prowess* (or should I say, lack thereof...? )

~GLB

------------------
In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2001, 12:04 PM:

The theater I was running before Regal bought us, we did the tour thing all the time. It was a very effective tool for community relations. We did it for school groups, community groups, boy scouts, and individual one-on-one as well. The results were something we were very proud of.

Posted by Manuel Francisco Valencia (Member # 710) on 01-03-2001, 01:55 PM:

I cannot ever recall a compliment, not even from my own staff. They know how hard it can be to be a manager and perform a miracle in booth like Scotty does for the enterprise. I guess projection is just one of those jobs where self-respect is the reward. My father always told me true honesty, loyalty, etc. is doing the right thing in a situation where you can get away with doing the wrong thing and nobody will ever know.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-03-2001, 02:15 PM:

IMHO, the best reward of being a projectionist is having hundreds of people laughing, crying or screaming in unison as they watch a good movie, flawlessly presented. You are the "unseen showman" who transports the audience to a world of entertainment.

I think it is important to actually ASK about presentation quality, either in person, using customer comment cards, or with a telephone/Internet "hotline". And RESPOND to any comments, thanking them for praise and fixing any problems.

Theatres can set up their own "Theatre Quality Evaluation Program" along the lines of the SMPTE or TAP programs, asking regular technically-saavy moviegoers to report on presentation quality in detail, perhaps in exchange for free admission. The original SMPTE form is posted in the Film-Tech "Manuals" archive.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-03-2001, 05:07 PM:

I've always wanted to make a T-Shirt that says, "Pay no attention to that man behind that window!!!"

(ala, Wizard of OZ)

Nobody would "get it", though...

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2001, 07:29 PM:

If you host booth tours, especially birthday parties, watch that little kid bubble with pride and joy if you let him start the show. When they push the start button, hear the ZAP of the igniter, the projector motor and platters come up to speed, and the changeover open and format lights changing, their eyes get as big as can be. They instantly become a hero to the rest of the kids in the group. They'll probably remember that as a pleasent experience the rest of their lives! (Just by telling them to punch the little green button.)

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2001, 07:39 PM:

John's Quote:
-------------------------------------------
IMHO, the best reward of being a projectionist is having hundreds of people laughing, crying or screaming in unison as they watch a good movie, flawlessly presented. You are the "unseen showman" who transports the audience to a world of entertainment.
-------------------------------------------

Yes, John. You are right on the money. This profession we are in is a thankless job.
What you said is the only reward we get for busting our butts to take the extra step to make sure it is done right. Actually, there is another reward if you think of it. That is PRIDE in yourself that you are a professional and performed as a professional.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-03-2001, 07:45 PM:

A cautionary word of warning to people giving booth tours to youngsters. Make sure to pull the parent aside and let them know of the hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment and films in the booth and for them to make sure that none of their kids touch anything for fear of costly damage or personal injury. That usually makes them sharpen up and keep their kids in line. Can anyone picture how the 5 year old kid's head feels after climbing under a SPECO platter while it is running? WHAM! I generally limit the tours to a dozen kids. I'll do three in a row if necessary, because it just isn't worth a kid tripping over the film and shutting down a show or hurting themselves.

Also, I generally try and make it a point to run the films onto the bottom platters on the show before a tour. It prevents the kids from trying to grab hold of the platters to pull themselves up to see what's going on.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2001, 07:56 PM:

Yes, Brad. We take very much caution about these things for the reasons you cited. We keep them well clear of the platters, and the parents are part of the tour. I can assure you that when we did that, everyone, including the parents are very closely supervised.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-03-2001, 08:23 PM:

Also check to make sure that the theatres liability coverage includes non employees in the booth

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2001, 08:50 PM:

Good point, Gordon.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-03-2001, 09:35 PM:

Typically, whenever I've done tours it was almost always when it wasn't "run-time". On the few occasions when we did let people in we made sure the people knew that there were shows going and that it was NOT normal to let people in the booth during those times.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 01-04-2001, 02:17 AM:

I can assure you that many shows do get run all the way through with the lights up because of a missed cue, and nobody complains...

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 01-04-2001, 02:56 AM:

John,

I agree with you! Is exactly what I feel when I have my screen full of people...

I think that many customers cannot understand the technical issues "behind the window" (Gordon, I would like to have that shirt but my windows are very very little... ) and they will left the theater without any comments about presentation.
But I think that they'll remember a good presentation when go to see a bad prsentation.

"Hey, but there weren't that scratches and dirty at xyz theater last week, and the sound was far better..."

They'll probably say nothing at the staff but next time, watching the newspaper searching for a film they'll pay more attention for the theater...

Antonio

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 01-04-2001, 10:04 AM:

I think the average person does not notice that much difference in presentation quality until they have experienced a variation in quality. People who only go to the theatre 3 or 4 times a year probably don't notice much unless something major goes wrong.

Back in 1997 when I suddenly experienced several major problems on successive visits to one particular theatre, after having fairly good luck on most visits everywhere from 1982 to late 1996, I began to wonder if my perception of quality at various theatres was more subjective or objective, so I started keeping score.

Keeping track of presentation problems has been very educational because it forced me to learn a lot of the technical aspects of film presentation. Keeping notes also made me realize that the quality of presentation varies much more widely from theatre to theatre than I originally thought.

I'm one of the customers that will mention problems to the management if I feel the management cares. For example, at Regal River Oaks Cinema in Decatur, I know that manager cares. For example, one time, I noticed a small amount of shutter ghosting at the bottom of the image. I said to the manager on the way out, "I noticed a little shutter ghosting at the bottom of the image in number 3". He replied "I'll adjust it." I have noticed that the minor problems I've pointed out have been remedied on future visits to the theatre. This is a sign of excellent management.

On the other hand, If such problems are mentioned and they remain on future visits, or I notice general sloppiness most of the time, I won't bother telling the management or staff anything, and will put in a comment card through Regal's WWW site (if it's a Regal theatre). For example, at Madison Square 12 in Huntsville, I use comment cards and usually don't bother saying anything to the staff, because I already know what to expect most of the time, and know that problems tend to remain for long periods of time.

Based on my observations, other theatre customers don't seem to care about quality as long as problems aren't so obvious that even a child would notice them (bad focus, frame line visible in picture, badly distorted sound or no sound, etc.).

I feel that I care about presentation quality more than 98 percent or more of the customers out there. Even my other technical friends that I work with don't care much. A friend of mine just saw "Miss Congeniality" and I asked him, "Was it flat or scope?" and he replied "I have no idea." I asked him because I wanted to know, since nobody posted the details in the info and trailer attachments forum.

In summary:
Does the average customer care? No, not unless there is a fairly major problem.

Ultimate example: A manager told me that at a Lousiana location, a showing of Titanic was played with a flat lens -- the ENTIRE movie -- and nobody complained. The staff noticed it about 15 minutes before the end of the movie and they all agreed not to change it since nobody seemed to care.

Evans A Criswell

Huntsville-Decatur Theatre Info and Projection Quality Ratings (on this site, notes are available for every movie seen at all local theatres):
http://home.hiwaay.net/~criswell/theatre/

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 01-04-2001, 04:57 PM:

Chris,

At a theater in Florence a friend of mine showed "Mission to Mars" (2.35:1) with masking for 1.85 and noone complained.

I showed the first 10 minutes of reel 4 of "La cena dei cretini" (A french film) at a volume of 3.5 instead of 7.5. Was for my mistake but is it possible that anyone noted that the volume was suddenly lower??? I'm talking about 3.5-7.5...

Antonio

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 01-04-2001, 04:59 PM:

Chris=Evans... Sorry!

Antonio

Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 01-08-2001, 12:18 PM:

customers really do notice a poor presentation. This is a case of people voting with their feet.

Example; There is another cinema not too far from the one I work in. During the Christmas season I was told by my manager that the head office of a business across the street from this other cinema called to book a rental for their employees. Just to be sure, my manger asked if the caller was aware that we were further away from their business than the other cinema. The caller told my manager that the employees at this business insisted on coming to our cinema even though it was a father distance to travel. My manager was told that if we could not book the rental then the staff would find something else to do. The reasons were not given but I think that this speaks volumes.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 01-08-2001, 05:31 PM:

Yes, customers care. We care about a reasonably comfortable, trouble free performance. A local theatre has permanently lost my business. It is very close to me, but I will NEVER go back.

This is what I must call an "unbrand" theatre. It is one of the former Cinemark theatres that was spun off from the main chain, but not too far. The word CINEMARK is removed from all materials, but everything else remained the same.

If anyone knows an address for the head office of this mystery chain, I'd appreciate knowing it.

Why was I so upset? The problem started with a LONG line in the lobby for tickets. The theatre was staffed by one ticket seller/ticket tearer, one manager, trying to handle money AND run the booth, and one popcorn seller. This was a Sunday afternoon. The ticket seller moved in semi-slow motion, and also had to handle the complaints of patrons who were waiting for their movie to start...only 20 minutes late.

After waiting in the LONG, SLOW line, we got our tickets and proceded to the theatre. At one time, this was the finest theatre in the area, originally with a well-tuned THX system. Screen size is small (26'...1990 construction), but well lit.

OK...the film starts just a few minutes late. Out of frame, but adjusted. Then, later in the trailers, it pops 2 sprocket holes out of frame. I complain and it keeps running for a few minutes with no intervention. Then, the film stops completely. I wait to see if anyone is taking care of the problem before complaining. After a reasonable time, I go to the slow ticket taker to complain again. This time, I'm told by the popcorn seller to "calm down, it's not really a problem." I replied that I did not consider this acceptable and I would be complaining to the head office. More laughter on the part of the popcorn purveyor.

OH, I forgot to mention the piece of dirt that fluttered around the right edge of the screen during the trailers, and continued for the entire film. Very distracting.

The film finally returned to the screen. Listening closely, I heard only center channel and surround. I don't know for sure, but I would be very surprised if the film did not have left/right sound content. It's always possible...if any of you are running TRAFFIC, is there left/right main sound? The theatre has DTS, and the film was threaded through the DTS reader.

About 10 minutes before the end of the film, the film breaks. We all got to enjoy the lovely spiderweb of melting film. The film stopped, but it was at least 2-3 minutes before the screen went dark...bet that lens was happy!

It took about 10 minutes to fix the film, and everything ELSE seemed to run OK.

I don't think the problem was lack of skill, I think it is lack of staff. 3 people is just not enough for a Sunday afternoon.

On top of all of that, I found TRAFFIC to be pretentious, poorly written, poorly photographed and only fairly acted. (Can you tell I didn't like the picture?) That didn't add to my mood either. I don't think my wife and I were ever so happy to leave a theatre.

As for the above movie review, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Mark Lensenmayer

------------------
"As a moral to young men who come down to the city, don't go round breaking people's tambourines."

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-08-2001, 07:42 PM:

No mark you are not wrong. I did not like traffic either. I found the sme problem with the sound too. At first I thought my dts wasn't working. But it was. Cinemark still owns two theaters in columbus. A twelve screen discount and a ten screen first run. One of the region offices is located at the ten screen first run I do beleive. The Reagion managers name is Charlie Street. You may be able to find out who ownes that theater now from him. I do not have a phone number on me to give out since I work in a Different reagion.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-08-2001, 09:53 PM:

Cinemark spun off a group of (mostly underperforming) theaters a while back to improve their credit rating. Basically, a little brother chain. I don't remember if they gave the new circuit a name, though, and I don't remember just how involved with these theaters the Mitchells remain. Starplex Cinemas is a little sister circuit to Cinemark, but these theaters did not go to them.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 01-09-2001, 12:19 AM:

Mark,

Your assumption about the sound in TRAFFIC is correct, or at least from what I experienced. The audio track is HORRIBLE. I had a DTS print and had to raise the fader to 7.5 in order to get *close* to a comfortable listening level. This should not be the case on a print which contains nothing more exciting than a bunch of dreary dialouge anyway. How the critics say this is one of the years best is BEYOND me. What certify's a critic anyway?

Oh, and btw, I found the color variations in the film deplorable as well. I can think of many, many other things I could have done with 2hrs 40 minutes of my time than sit thru this film.

------------------
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-09-2001, 11:29 AM:

I tend to agree with Evans C. about people only noticing quality when there is a change. I've been to several theaters which I think are dumps, yet they do good business.

There are two theaters near me, in towns that are known for having money. The theaters are dumps, and have been for 20 years. Yet, eveyone in those towns think the theaters are (maybe not the most modern, but) generally good, quality places. They've been dumps for so long, people there think that's the "norm."

The theaters are close (to where the people who go there live,) moms feel OK about dropping their kids off there, etc.

So, despite the "insults" the theaters throw at the local patrons, they keep going back.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 01-10-2001, 08:33 AM:

The city makes a lot of difference when it comes to customers noticing good/bad presentations. For example, in Decatur, AL, one theatre has truly professional quality presentations and the other has very mediocre presentation. Most customers notice the difference, but instead of hearing comments like "Theatre A has great projection quality", you hear "Theatre B has poor projection quality". Customers much more often give negative comments about bad experiences rather than positive comments about good experiences. However, theatre B survives because it gets half of the movies and if movie X is playing at theatre B, then customers can either go to theatre B (most likely) or drive to Huntsville (less likely).

In a city where there are a few theatres and they're all mediocre in quality, people that never go to other cities to watch movies get used to it and probably assume that all theatres are that way.

The general public is, for the most part, very uneducated concerning film and projection. I doubt that many people under the age of 30 (I'm 32) have ever touched or seen an piece of motion picture film or operated any kind of projector unless they've worked for a theatre. I use this age because I used to see 16mm films in class in school one or two times a week, on the average, and students in the class often operated the projectors, so everyone was familiar with film. After 1982, instead of having a 6-foot screen in the front of the room big enough for everyone to see, we had videotape and 19 inch televisions for an entire class to watch. The public's exposure to film was over. Most of the younger generation that goes to theatres now probably think that some sort of "super videotape" or "super DVD" is used. With these ideas in their heads, how could they even recognize many of the minor problems that occur?

Evans

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 01-10-2001, 09:02 AM:

I heard what was supposed to be a national statistic once.
A dissatisfied customer tells 11 people, a satisfied customer tells 2.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-10-2001, 12:14 PM:

We've gone to some lengths here to make people realize what "film looks like."

First, in my ticket window (where you lay your money down) I have installed a plate of glass, under which I have some strips of film cut from old Disney trailers laid out in a decorative fashion. Kids love to look at the clips and try to figure out what movies they're from, while the adults ask questions about the soundtracks, etc. It's cool.

I also have an old "frame" area in the lobby that's too narrow for a one-sheet, so I turned it into a "welcome to the movies" display. In the top corner is a house reel with about 500' of old trailers on it...the film comes off the reel and makes a frame around the display. I get endless questions about the film -- "what movie is that?" etc.

Just part of educating the public that "it ain't tape!"

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 01-11-2001, 06:45 AM:

Evans:

FWIW, I'm 19, and still have memories of watching 16mm films in elementary school. After the teacher finally got the print threaded, usually chopping off leader in the process, I got to keep the leader. It's the first film I ever collected-- I wonder where it is now. Funny to think that if it wasn't for this early exposure to film, I may never have gotten interested in projection.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 01-11-2001, 08:22 AM:

I'm sure different school districts switched from film to videotape at different times. After the 1981-1982 school year in Georgia, I believe that the state department of education stopped providing their film library. Schools could "check out" films from there, and I probably watched every film they had at least two or three times during my 1st through 8th grade years.

During my 7th and 8th grade years when I was at Cedartown Junior High School, before and after school, I helped in the library. I did the film projectors and the overdue book slips. First, I took a projector and the films to be shown to each teacher that needed them. When a teacher was ready to show the film for first period, the projector was there, threaded and aimed and ready to go (just turn it on). That was one less chore the teacher had to do that morning. I learned the personalities of all three of the school's projectors and knew the tricks to get each to work properly when they gave trouble. The funny thing was during my 8th grade year, when a teacher would have trouble with a projector, sometimes they'd get me out of class instead of sending someone to the library to get the librarian. I was age 12 and 13 these two years when I did this.

During my high school years, I think I saw a total of 3 films run on projectors and all the rest were from videotape on a 19 inch TV except "Romeo and Juliet" in early 1983 which was on the type of videodisc system that used a stylus (RCA Selectavision?).

After 1982 in Georgia, I'm sure "film awareness" slowly went down considerably, since students entering the system for the 1982-1983 school year would seldom see film or projectors anymore. Someone age 6 in 1982 would be 24 now.

Evans

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-11-2001, 08:46 AM:

I'm 24 and saw quite a few 16mm films in elementary school and even a few in high school (early '90s). I also made a couple of 16mm shorts which I showed to everyone in my high school in 1994/1995, so film in schools was alive (barely) at that time.

In elementary school, we had a bunch of "auto shred" B&H 545 projectors (with tube amps). The ones we had actually worked pretty well and I don't remember ever personally damaging a print (most of the teachers probably would have, though...).

Most of the "educational" films (and, later, videotapes) that I've seen are pretty bad, though. With the rare exception, most of these were probably not worth seeing...

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 01-11-2001, 12:32 PM:

I wish I could remember the specific Bell and Howell models we had. In the library, we had two "Autoload" models, where you push a lever to put the machine in autoload position, then feed the film in and the machine grabs it and pulls it through. You then stop the machine and tug on the film or rotate the take-up-reel for tension, which takes the machine out of autoload position and it's ready to go. We had an older, noisier autoload and a newer, quieter model.

The other Bell and Howell we had was called by our librarian a "slot load". You'd just push a lever, run the film through the slot, then turn the lever back up. This type of projector jammed much less often than the autoload types.

Until I got to junior high school, all projectors I saw were of the autoload variety. At that junior high school, the history and science departments had their own autoload projectors, which were slightly different models than the older machine we had in the library. I think that school had 27 classrooms, and had 5 16mm projectors at that time, with 2 or 3 in use nearly all day every day (1980-1982).

Evans

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 01-11-2001, 02:04 PM:

16mm was just abandoned here at the state university a few months ago. My department managed to acquire all of the projectors and the film library (thank God!) but most people I've talked with about it think I'm nuts. You'd think that they were getting rid of 16mm b/c it isn't used, however, is because they perceive that the format is dead (and 35mm along with it!)

Our students have been told "film is dead so we're teaching you digital." This is a group that enjoys theatres because of stadium seating and *advertised* digital sound.

I've all but given up freelancing for certain local theatre chains because managers KNOW that the audience doesn't know, and I don't like having to say that I've worked there. Audiences have been convinced prematurely of the wonders of digital, and have come to expect less of film. Its a mental state that will subject us all to sub-par presentations (not at our _own_ theatres of course!) for the next several years.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 01-14-2001, 03:08 AM:

Oh goodness...
I don't remember seeing anything on film when I was in school. I remember lots of video, and slides... But no 16mm.
For the curious, I began elementary school in the fall of 1983, and graduated from high school in June of 1996, yeah, so that makes me old enough to not have to tell my age!

~GLB

------------------
In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 01-14-2001, 06:55 AM:

Plenty of 16mm in schools here, at least through the 80's. There was a comedian who used to do a bit on Comedy Central about those ratty "educational films", he'd put his lips together and mimic the soundtrack as though he were blowing bubbles. Pretty funny (and true, probably at least one-quarter of the attempts at showing classroom films failed!). How come 16mm and 8mm for that matter were "autoload" but 35mm never was? How did it work?

------------------
Dave Bird

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-14-2001, 11:18 AM:

I remember running the bell and howel projectors in junior high back in the late 70's. I can't remember the model but they were the ones that were blue green and you had to thread the whole thing, no autothread. I remember once we were having an assembly of some of our classes and I was in charge of the projectors. One of the machines I was using, I had to manually turn the take-up reel otherwise the film would run into the floor. That was my first experience with keeping the show on the screen.

Posted by Frank Rapisardi (Member # 435) on 01-15-2001, 05:07 AM:

Do moviegoers care;or better yet know.Years ago when I was working at the Merrimack Rark Drive In in Methuen Ma;the Managers wife;who ran the snack bar asked me if I could Rewind the tapes and start the show again!

------------------