Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Carbon Arcs and Health

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-20-1999, 08:03 AM:

I worked my way through college as a projectionist at the Grandview Drive-In theatre in Angola, NY. (It's still in operation, even without me

). On cold nights, we would turn off the lamphouse blower system to keep the booth warm. When you came in from the outside, it would have a very strange odor. I really disliked the messy annual job of using a shop vac to clean out the carbon ash from the vent system. Last time I checked, I'm still in good health at age 51 (cough, cough, hack, hack,...).

The other operator used to heat his pizzas and other food in the Ashcraft Super Cinex lamphouse. Lost track of "Carl", but not sure all those "rare-earth compounds that provide the special qualities of the light" (quote from National Carbon Technical Bulletin) were very good for his health.

This was before OSHA (1967-1970), and before I knew any better.

Does anyone else have carbon arc "war stories"?

------------------
John Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243

Posted by Tom Wurz (Member # 42) on 09-20-1999, 04:03 PM:

I worked in a printing plant for many years. Some of the guys would use the carbon arc light, that we would use to expose offset printing plates, to tan themselves.
Without proper ventilation, the smoke that comes from the burning arcs is extremely hazardous.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-20-1999, 05:19 PM:

What I would like to know is if there are any projectionists still alive who smoked AND worked with carbon arcs full-time. If so, how are your artificial lungs holding up?

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-20-1999, 10:33 PM:

Peterborough Drive-In, Peterborough, Ontario, Canada. (I was there 5 years).
Strong 135 lamps (11 MM X 3/8" trim).
We used to strike the arc with the back door open to protect the Balcold reflectors. Always got dizzy from a good whiff of carbon monoxide, but usually recovered in time to make the change-over. Smoked two packs a day at the time (still do). Excuse me while I put another Loonie (Canadian dollar) in my artificial lung machine.
There, that's better.
Under the "Practical Jokes On Newbies" topic, I told the story of my father and the beans. Miss those days.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-21-1999, 05:53 PM:

"...yeah, that should do it. Medium pizza; pepperoni, bacon, mushrooms, green peppers, rare-earth compounds, and extra cheese.....thirty minutes?...O.K." (click)...BEEP..BEEP..BEEP.."Aw sh*t".

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-22-1999, 10:46 PM:

Me again. Sorry to hog the post, John, but you've hit upon one of my favourite topics.
I apprenticed with my Dad in a carbon-arc booth. The company who owned the theatre switched carbon brands from National (the best) to a cheaper brand, subject to core "blow-outs", often extinguishing the arc in the middle of a reel.
While lecturing me, with his back to the lamp, my Dad would abruptly about-turn and re-strike the arc before I even knew it had gone out. I began to wonder (as I often suspected as a youth) if he indeed had eyes in the back of his head.
It was not until I became a projectionist that I realized that he had reacted to the sound of the Peerless arc-feed motor suddenly speeding up, and how important the sense of hearing is to a projectionist. Spending enough time in a booth, one gets used to the natural sound of the equipment. This sense often acts as an early-warning system; detecting film not riding properly on a sprocket, unusual bearing or belt noise, ect.
When I go on a service call, and the projectionist reports that his equipment doesn't "sound quite right", I pay attention.
In all too many new multiples, this warning system is impeaded by craming exhaust fans and H.V.A.C. elements into the projection booth.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-22-1999, 11:19 PM:

Yeah, I hear you!

When my friend taught me how to work arclamps, he showed me how the sound of the arc can tell you it's out of trim.

First it starts to whistle a bit then it sounds like somebody letting the air out of a balloon. (Unless you have an AC arclamp. They whine continuously, but they are almost never found in projectors. Mostly old theatre follow spots and stuff.)

Anybody ever light a cigarette off one?

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 09-23-1999, 07:33 PM:

I have seen many a projectionist light up a smoke with carbon arcs even to the point of striking the arc just to light up the damn cigarett.I remember one projectionist at a Drive-in who used to keep his fish and chips warm buy putting them in the arc while the reel was showing. A couple of times I have left a cloth in the lamp house which of course they were cremated.After a while I knew how many spls I could get out of a trim and often got down to the end of very end carbon rod as the change over to the next spl happened.Ah they were the days, the newbies have certainly got it easy these days no change overs no triming the arc,but I was glad to see the back of the carbon arc,no more black crap over your hands as was the case with the black 11mm carbons used in drive-ins.The last change over I have done was 10 years ago last time I used a carbon arc was 1986. Wouldnt swap xenons and platters for change overs and carbon arcs for anyone.New trainees are amazed when you tell them how things were done before xenons platters automation came along.

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-23-1999, 07:55 PM:

Are carbon-arc setups really all that bad for one's health? Most of the carbon-arc installations that I've seen are extremely well ventilated (as are the xenon setups that were installed in former carbon booths).

I started working as a projectionist (part-time) about a year and a half ago, running 2000' and 6000' reels and xenons. I did some carbon-arc work over this summer, though. For theatre use, my personal preference is for carbons, but I realize that it would be pretty foolish to install this sort of setup in a newly built theatre or as part of a renovation. Still, I really like the color temperature of carbons, and I like the convenience of being able to strike the arc for, say, a single trailer, without feeling guilty about taking a lot of time off of the useful life of the lamp.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-24-1999, 03:40 AM:

I remember well as my Dad was training me as a 9 year old 'apprentice' at the drive in, going down to the cafe just before intermission and buying two ultra 'freshly' made hot dogs and throwing them into the carbon arc lamphouse while we showed the manditory 20 mins of advertising slides.

At the end of the intermission and as the 2nd feature was cranked up and running away happily, we opened the lamphouse and ate our still hot (perhaps even hotter) fresh hot dogs.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
hot dogs...........................

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John

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-25-1999, 01:00 AM:

It's possible, it's just that it's a lot harder on the eyes to light a cigarette off a xenon bulb than a carbon arc.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-25-1999, 01:13 AM:

Like you, John, I too worked my way through college as a Drive-In projectionist. (My Dad warned me years earlier "Don't stay in this buisness - it won't be here for long).
I found (as I'm sure you did) that getting home at 2 A.M. only to get up at 7 A.M. to be at college on time, was a real pain in the butt. Besides, I was making more than a lot of guys I knew who had already been through college. I guess I never was smart enough to get out of this buisness - don't regret it though, it's been fun.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 09-25-1999, 06:08 AM:

Ah, carbons, it's been about 14 years since my last carbon experience. I started on carbons and 2,000s. Don't believe all the romance of carbons talk, they were dirty and often conpromised the film even in the best theaters. I used a carbon hand feed slide machine at one big barn I once worked at and the ventilation was poor. I'm still standing, but often wonder what all that ash and fumes coming out of Ashcraft Super cinex and Corelites has done to my health. Long live xenons.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-25-1999, 08:35 PM:

If properly vented there is little health risk. And the quality of the light was by far superior to xenon as one must remeber that carbon is a continuous spectrum where as xenon the light is a group of closly spaced lines approximating a conituous spectrum (much like analogue sound is a conitnous waveform versus closly spaced steps in a digital sound system)
Give me a jetarc anyday

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-25-1999, 10:55 PM:

I promise that this is probably the last post I shall make on this subject. It can then, like carbon-arcs should be, forever laid to rest for once and for all.
For the newbies, let me briefly describe the proceedure of a reel projectionist in striking a generator-powered carbon arc.
On the rear of the projection base was a two-bladed knife switch. To strike the arc, you "threw in' the knife switch, brought the negative carbon into the positive carbon, then quickly seperated the them to form a gap of about 1/2 inch to establish and arc. This was a proceedure you followed at least every 20 minutes of your working day. It was an autonomic response to the reel-end alarm - you didn't have to think about it - you just did it.
The arcs at Paramount, Peterborough were powered by a Transverter double-ended generator (basically a big three-phase motor with a D.C. generator on each end - one for each 70-amp arc.) Dual field controls practically negated the need for power-robbing ballast resistors.
One night, the generator for RIGHT arc began to exhibit an unusually strong "ring of fire" around the commutator. Ohmeter checks showed a couple of windings to be open. Due to the prohibitive cost of repair, it was decided to switch to rectifiers - but they wouldn't be available for three days. We were left with the problem of providing a continuous performance with only power for one arc.
We elected to use a series-arc configuration. WIRING: GEN+ to LEFT ARC +; LEFT ARC - to RIGHT ARC +; RIGHT ARC - to GEN -. Both knife switches were jumped so that when "thrown in" they would short-circuit their respective arcs.
To start the show (typically on LEFT projector), you threw in the RIGHT switch (providing full power to LEFT projector. You struck the arc, and started the show.
The tricky part was the change-over. You brought the LEFT (operating) arc to 3\8 inch,
at RIGHT arc you used the tounge-and-finger method to "wet" the negative carbon and then jam it into the positive carbon. You then "threw out" the RIGHT shorting switch and GENTLY brought the now-glowing carbons apart;
being careful not to go to fast less you extinguish both arcs, and cause a performace interuption. With both arcs burning (at about 40 amps) you made the change-over. You then proceeded quickly to LEFT arc to throw in the shorting switch. Just as quickly, you proceeded to RIGHT arc to separate the gap to 1/2 inch before it covered your reflector with soot from those wonderful rare-earth compunds.
You had to be be damn careful not to lose concentration and let your mind wander. Throwing both switches in would have resulted in welding the switches "in" and shorting the last available generator.
As you can imagne, we were somewhat releived to see the arrival of the new rectifiers.
So, maybe there are some advantages to xenon after all, but I sure felt more like a "projectionist" in those days.

As you can probably imagine, we were somewhat releived to see the arrival of the new rectifiers.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-26-1999, 04:04 AM:

A real (reel) projectionist? Let me tell you. It really sucks being a fake projectionist like myself. Ah, I am so spoiled with these newfangled xenons, platters, and other fancy gadgets and whathaveyou.

Projection history is interesting. But in my definition, a true (real) projectionist is just somebody who is knowledgable and takes pride in their work. I have never worked with carbon arcs. But I have run reel to reel. It was fun, but I wouldn't want to do it for a living. It is also hell on the tails of each reel. After only 2 passes I can tell that a reel change is coming up just by looking at all of the scuff marks on the screen. This is before the cues come up. Platter operation is much nicer to the print, assuming that the platter is in good working order. For the most part, I like the present. There were lots of better things about the past, like the amount of respect for the job. Unfortunately people confuse automation with easy, even though we are running 16 times as many auditoriums. Oh well. Sorry for ranting. Nothing personal towards anyone.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-26-1999, 09:21 AM:

I agree with Joe that one of the problems with theatre presentation today is the lack of respect for the true skill required to be a good projectionist. I've visited theatres where the operators can't even describe the differences between scope and flat, and don't have the foggiest idea of how to clean a lens or port glass properly. To them, it's just another summer job.

I toured a new multiplex theatre in Rochester that had just opened, and was surprised to see one teenager splicing film while wearing woolen mittens. When I asked why he was wearing the mittens, he said that he was told to wear gloves when handling film.

It was more fun in the "good old days" --- I don't think I could take the stress of running 16 screens.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-26-1999, 10:37 AM:

Whoa, hold on, back up and put down that rope. By "reel projectionist", I meant one that works with the film entirley on reels - no platters or towers. Sorry 'bout that.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-26-1999, 11:27 AM:

I've spent many a day in changeover as well as platter houses. Although I will admit in a single screen booth, running changeovers does give the operator something to do, it is very difficult to run film the old "brute force" method without some form of damage. Cinch marks and dirt accumulation at the ends of the reels where the film is handled will always be there and will get consistently worse with every run. The larger the reels, the worse this is. I won't even get into the film slapping on the takeup into oil drip pans!

A truly good projectionist can run a dozen screens with platters and have a BETTER presentation than a single screen with changeovers. I'll challenge anyone, anyday with that statement. Platters always get a bad rep because it is mostly kids...who view the projectionist position as a way to get out from behind the concession stand, and have no real respect for their jobs.

There is just nothing worse than being distracted at every reel change because of handling marks on changeover houses! I can't stand it! This problem becomes even worse with changeover repertory houses that will rescratch cue marks just because 2 frames is missing from the tail. I mean really, can't these operators just put a piece of tape on the "cue" frame on the head leader to represent the correct starting point? I always did. Actually, I always put a piece of white or masking tape over the first black frame on the tail leader as well and performed my changeovers when I saw that marker hit the gate. Other than the starting cue, there is no need for a second cue on screen. Never did I "scratch" a film. Having multiple cue marks is incredibly annoying. I wish the studios would just stop printing them alltogether, personally.

One other thing and I'll step back down. A good changeover house can ALWAYS been identified by 25 extra feet of head and tail leader spliced to the existing head and tail leaders of a print. This is the only way to keep all those unnecessary handling marks to an absolute minimum. Nowadays, I find it odd to receive more than 5 feet of tail leader on a print. Frequently I'll get brand new prints with 1 or 2 feet of tail leader! This practice also goes for platter houses, except of course it is only needed on the tail.

To John Pytlak: how about mentioning something about the lack of a decent stretch of leader at the SMPTE meeting??? The least the labs could do is provide a couple of dozen extra feet at the end of the final reel since most theaters are platter ran anyway.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-27-1999, 06:48 PM:

Brad --- I am "on the road" in LA with my laptop, so I don't have a copy of the SMPTE standards. But I recall that the SMPTE does specify quite a length of "protective" leader, in addition to the minimum required for countdown and runout. Like most of the things that are hurting presentation quality, the short leaders are a cost-cutting measure.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-27-1999, 09:35 PM:

John,

Please do post that info when you return. I have never heard of anyone (including SMPTE) recommending that practice.

For that matter, how about sending me all the "RPs" and I'll post them on Film-Tech for people to reference to?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-28-1999, 08:31 AM:

Regarding cue marks--a number of foreign films don't have them. "Celestial Clockwork" comes to mind, but there are others. In this case, the marks have to be scratched in by hand. When I saw "Fifth Element" in the UK at the Empire Leicester Square a few years ago, the print had no visible cue marks at all. It was a very strange experience.

Personally, I think that cue marks are pretty important, if only for distinguishing between a make-up splice and a repair splices (just go back 24 frames and look for the presence or absence of cues). And, of course, they're necessary for manual operation, particularly since the alternative is hand-scratched cue marks in (most likely) the wrong locations.

I only added hand-scratched cues (with a Clint Phare cue marker) if the originals were exceptionally difficult to see or if enough frames were missing that the second set of cue marks was nonexistant. I also added a lower-right-hand-corner curtain cue 16 feet from the tail of the last reel (on one frame only, though).

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-28-1999, 06:24 PM:

I always admired the German system for cue marks. The motor start cue was square, and the change-over cue was a circle. Easy to tell if that blink or sneeze caused you to miss a cue.

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 09-28-1999, 08:45 PM:

An old-time projectionist I knew until his passing several years ago used a china marker to make cue marks, making slash marks in the upper right corner of the frame.

Advantages: The marks held up well, but could be cleaned off at the end of the run.

Disadvantage: The marks looked kind of distracting. Good thing china-marker marks were temporary!

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 09-28-1999, 09:26 PM:

It seems that, at least in the case of platter houses, some other means could be used to identify the end of the reel-- for example, a stripe of color on the edge of the film. I know that the SDDS track appropriated the film edge, but I have seen SDDS tracks of different colors anyway...

Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 09-28-1999, 11:52 PM:

Scott, I don't remember "Celestial Clockwork" not having cues, but I ran it on a platter and may have not looked for cues at the time. My print of "Celestial Clockwork" had a pin registration problem and jumped out of frame (by less then one sprocket) several times during the show. It was enough to put the subtitles down on the masking. The distributor told us all the prints were printed that way. Also it was hard matted to 1:1.85 and the frame lines were clear! Great movie though.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-03-1999, 11:06 AM:

The first theater I worked at was a pretty nice booth, but the theater chain had fallen on hard times. The equipment was Cinemeccanica V8 and Ashcraft Corelite 150's.
The 70mm had (and to this day) only been used once for "Hello, Dolly" which bombed, and drove them further into debt. The operator who opened the theater in 1969 had moved to another theater when I stared in 1977.
The guy who first trained me would only run 40 min reels, even though the lamps and projector could last an hour. I finally figured out why: after running two 40min reels, there was a long "stub" of positive, which he would then peel the copper off and sell it. He had management buying about 25-30% more positive then needed. I guess no one noticed we didn't need any more negative. We used to buy cheaper Marble "Double-Eagle" carbons. I think he thought someone might catch on quicker if we got the more expensive Lorrines. He hated waiting for the copper to melt off, so he would sit there all day with a little pen knife, peeling away. There was a sink and a toilet right in the booth but he would'nt wash his hands.
Back then, it was consitered nice if you donated the copper-money to Will Rodgers. Later, when he had some trouble breathing (unrelated to carbons) and said he was going to Will Rodgers for help, I could only roll my eyes.
About a full year later, I was asked to work at another theater, and it turned out to be the operator who opened the previous place I worked at. That guy taught me to be a *Projectionist*; "Don't lick your finger to wet the emulsion!"; "Wash you hands, before threading up" etc, etc.

Posted by Stephen Winner (Member # 8) on 10-06-1999, 08:51 PM:

I don't know if my experience with carbon-arc's and changeovers will ever be worth anything in my future, but It will be quite fascinating to tell my grandchildren about working in an old-time moviehouse 50 years from now, especially after I show them some of my super-8 footage on how it's done in one of those theaters.

It's hard to say if platters are better on the film, we have a litter trailer that has never been spliced in that is close to 3 years old. Being run almost every night, it has yet to develop any scratches from our Simplex XL's

We are running our projectors here with ventilation, but our follow spot, Brenkert model 15, and our brenograph slide projector are both running un-ventilated. One thing I can say is that I like the smell the projection room gives the rest of the theater. It's kind of distinct, and along with the popcorn, and other aromas, gives our theater a pleasant, unique smell (especially after 70 years!!!)that visitors have commented on.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-09-1999, 10:19 PM:

*snnniiiiiiiiiff!!!!* Aaaaah, ah luv the smell of carbon in th' morning!