Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Variable Density vs. Variable Area

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-02-1999, 12:42 PM:

I recently got a print of a very old feature in 35. I went through it and inspected every inch of it before I played it. It has the old variable density audio track. I was leery of this audio, because of all the old 16 prints that I have seen with this sound sucked.

When I played it, I was impressed by the tonal range of the recording. The sound is very warm and clear, with minimal noise in quiet areas of the film.

I have a fairly new print of one of the reels that has a variable area track that is not as clean as the VD track. I am thinking that the VA print might just be a bad recording (from Movielab!?) What do you think?

The VD track has a more "tube" sound that I like. Maybe one day, I can run this print in a theater, and compare the sound on a larger system, but since both dollar houses closed recently, I have no place to screen anything anymore.

The sound lens on my projector is original. It was built around 5 years after this film was made. I know that a more narrow slit would probably improve the sound, but I dont know where to go to buy one that fits a Holmes. My lens is clear and OK.

All of the other films that I have, with the exception of an old Warner cartoon, have the same type soundtrack. They all sound the same...good enough. The Warner print has a more "tube" sound, because of the type track that it uses... I dont know the name, but I have seen it on hundreds of 16mm Warner features.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 11-02-1999, 07:54 PM:

I've always thought of Variable Density soundtracks as similar to FM radio and Variable Area being similar to AM radio.

I've always prefered the density tracks myself. They seem to sound better.

Variable Density is sometimes better known as a Western Electric track and Variable Area as the RCA track.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-02-1999, 09:18 PM:

Yeah, the sound was recorded by Western Electric... I can hear individual orchestra instruments that I have never noticed on my VHS recording, or my extra reel. All through the print I am noticing triangle shaped "bloops" where the different parts of the soundtrack were assembled. You barely hear anything at these edits.

The film was released in 1936, and has excellent sound. The picture quality is outstanding, too.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 11-03-1999, 12:36 PM:

I have run a few variable density soundtrack films. I have noticed that the sound is optimized for dialogue. There was lots of hiss and very little dynamic range. But because all the films that I showed were old, they had that old film sound, and everybody liked it. The worst part of the variable density soundtrack was usually the overture at the beginning of the film. It usually sounded harsh and bright, just like on TV with the sound turned up too loud.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-03-1999, 02:39 PM:

If I'm not mistaken, the reason for the switch to Variable Area soundtracks was to get higher frequency response. In the 'old days', I remember the highest freq. was around 9Khz. The reason voices sound so good is that's about the freq. range of human voice. The reason the orchestra sounds so bad is that the freq. range of music is much wider. With the advent of V.A. sndtrk. and Dolby NR the range was increased.

I think a lot of reason people like 'old' movie sound is becasue 'modern' movies have such a complex soundtrack that it's hard to concentrate on the real action. (There's such a thing as too realistic.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-04-1999, 10:33 AM:

Have any of you heard any of the older B/W Warner cartoons on Nicktoons? (On TV!) They are incredibly boomy and raspy. I think that the new film transfer systems can not do a good job with these old prints. (I was told by a rep at Nick that the bad sound was due to the poor print quality. Balony. The visual image was perfect.

The hiss sound is normal for this type sound. It is less noticable on 35 than it is on 16. I got an old print of a '50's TV show yesterday on 16mm. I checked it, and ran it without looking at the soundtrack. It was loud, brassy, and clean. It was a density track!

I rather like surface noise. Obvious?

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 11-05-1999, 01:20 AM:

quote:
The worst part of the variable density soundtrack was usually the overture at the beginning of the film.

I've noticed the same thing on VD prints. Dialog great, orchestral music sounds distorted.

quote:
If I'm not mistaken, the reason for the switch to Variable Area soundtracks was to get higher frequency response. In the 'old days', I remember the highest freq. was around 9Khz. The reason voices sound so good is that's about the freq. range of human voice. The reason the orchestra sounds so bad is that the freq. range of music is much wider. With the advent of V.A. sndtrk. and Dolby NR the range was increased.

Wouldn't that have all been the same if both VD & VA were conforming to the Academy (mono) curve? Anyway, full music sounds overdriven in the upper freq's on the VD tracks that went through here & with the processor in mono. Fooling around with an outboard EQ to cut stuff in the high end did only a little for the music, & made the dialog worse. The distorted quality of the full music in overtures against the bright-sounding dialog (woggling around somewhere lower) makes me think that:
1. The EQ really does resemble a tape recorded with consumer Dolby NR & played back without it.
2. The VD tracks are higher gain overall than VA.

I s'pose I should whoop the meter on it next time there's a VD print here. The solution may simply be to pad the input to the pre-amp on VD prints to squash the distortion. Since the dynamic range between all-out overtures & dialog seems to be large, it may be neccessary to drop a little compression in there, too.

I have a suspicion that period repro for VD tracks on old tube equipment may have something to do with the variations we're seeing now.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-05-1999, 06:37 AM:

SO,
The reason I am getting such good results with sound is because I am using:

1-Vintage 1940 sound optics...
2-A Tube-type power amp...
3-An EQ that is only taking out excessive low frequencies that caused a pre-amp failure earlier this fall.

When I get time, I am going to run the print and make a good recording of it on audio so I can loose the projector noise totally. I will also record my spare VA reel. I will post my results here.

I ran another print of this feature years ago. The sound was nothing spectacular. It was VA, I am sure, because this print is the first VD print I have ever seen in 35 of anything.