Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Strange Damage to Sleepy Hollow

This is topic Strange Damage to Sleepy Hollow in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 12-06-1999, 12:35 AM:

I have had some strange damage appear on a print and I was wondering if anyone had any idea what happened. Basically, at the start of reel 3 (by start, I mean right at the splice) blistering appeared in the lower right corner of the screen. The damage was moderate, only appearing on extremely dark parts of the image. The damage got more severe at the start of reel 4 (again, right on the splice), but was still isolated to the lower right corner. Once the splice for reel 5 went through, the damage stopped (again, right at the splice).

A new bulb (a Chrisitie CXL-40)was installed one week ago. Light output is uniform across the screen, and the bulb is not overly focused.

Any idea what happened? My best guess is that the film was either defective or not printed correctly, and the increased light from the new lamp pushed it over the edge...

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 12-06-1999, 01:14 AM:

Someone posted a similar problem here recently, but they had it with some dts tags I think. John Pytlak tracked it to the stock if memory serves (But don't go trusting my memory)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-1999, 01:24 AM:

Is your print on Kodak 2383 stock? Is it a green burn or white burn? I just checked with a couple other theaters playing that title and none of them have reported the problem, but I've seen it happen a few times on trailers...never (thus far) on a feature. It's always with the 2383 stock, but it could be something the lab is doing and not a fault of the film stock itself.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-06-1999, 06:36 AM:

What other print stocks does Eastman sell now besides 2383 (Vision) and 23?? (Vision Premier)? A phone call to a lab recently confirmed that 2386 (EXR) is no longer available and that Eastman no longer produces any acetate-base print stock for standard release prints. Oddly enough, the low-contrast print stock intended for video transfer work is currently available _only_ on acetate base, which causes no end of problems for labs that have removed their backing-removing equipment that was necessary for the old 5386 and 7386 acetate-base print stocks...

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 12-06-1999, 09:42 AM:

I will check the stock when I get to the theatre. Pretty much the exact same thing (unexplained blistering in the lower right corner) happened to the print of Sleepy Hollow playing at our sister theatre too, about 2 weeks ago, also a few days after relamping.

The burns arer white, and have the typical "champagne bubbles" appearance on the screen.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 12-06-1999, 10:09 AM:

Could it be a loose 'something' in the gate/trap? Seems unlikly, I know, but I was just wondering.

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 12-06-1999, 11:08 AM:

It is on Kodak 2383 stock. Printed by Deluxe (though I don't know which one, probably CA though).

Everything in the gate/trap area is ok.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-06-1999, 11:59 AM:

Havent seen the film but there are what is called High Silver prints that have metalic silver left in the image for contrast control and they blister just as bad as black and white does

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-1999, 12:58 PM:

Then if it's a typical white burn, it's from too much heat from the lamphouse. I'd forgotten until Gordon mentioned it, but he is right, those Sleepy Hollow prints are high silver and will burn with less heat.

Do you have curved screens? Commonly the lamp is adjusted to "appear" centered and properly focused when in fact the way the light reflects off of the curve, the light is off center.

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 12-06-1999, 01:56 PM:

It is a curved screen. The thing that makes me wonder is that it starts on the splice at the head of reel 3, gets worse on the splice of the head to reel 4, and goes away at the splice on the head of reel 5. Reels 1, 2, 5 and 6 are undamaged.

The light is completely uniform over the entire screen.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-06-1999, 04:10 PM:

Definitely sounds like damage from excessive radiant energy. I'll check to see if some reels were deliberately processed with silver retention to add contrast, which would make them absorb more infrared energy. The damage usually occurs in the area of any "hot spot" and in the darkest scenes with the highest density. You need to back off on bulb focus to spread out the hot spot.

Can you send me a clip of the damaged film, so we can analyze it microscopically?

------------------
John Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-1999, 04:49 PM:

Jim,

Take yourself a stretch of black leader, make a loop out of it and after aligning the lamp as perfectly as you can "with a slight hot spot in the center of the screen" (to maximize the effect), run it for 20 minutes or so. Then take that loop out of the projector and you'll see where the heat really is.

At Galaxy, what appears centered is actually on the top (projected bottom) of the frame! Try it for yourself, you'll be surprised as this is common with curved screens and especially stadium seating.

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 12-06-1999, 10:30 PM:

I'll try that when I get in tomorrow. We backed off the focus after it happened, just in case (don't want to cook any more of the print).

John, I'll send you samples when I swap out the reels with the new ones, which arrive tomorrow.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-07-1999, 04:26 PM:

Just got confirmation that prints of "Sleepy Hollow" did use a "silver retention" process to achieve the desired "look". Don't know if all reels had the same level of silver retention. When a silver image is left in the print, it will absorb more infrared energy than a dye-only image. Special care (similar to B&W prints) is needed not to "hot spot" these prints. Efficient heat filters ("cold mirrors") should be used, especially with larger xenon lamps.

Posted by Robb Johnston (Member # 239) on 12-18-1999, 11:14 AM:

we didn't have a problem with the picture, but we did have a cupped first reel of Sleepy Hollow. The cuppping is so bad that the film presence reflection is skewed off the sensor and shuts down the film. There is no problem in the other 7 houses in that building which have kelmar drop arm failsafes. I thik this is a problem with whomever strikes the prints for Paramount as we had the same problem with a Bringing out the dead trailer.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-18-1999, 04:31 PM:

The Bringing out the Dead trailers were also printed with the silver retention John spoke of above. What size xenon lamp are you using and what make/model lamphouse? Any form of heat filter?

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 07-23-2007, 10:27 AM:

It has been 2773 days since the last post.

Posted by Donna Sylvester (Member # 726) on 07-23-2007, 10:27 AM:

Does anyone know if they used the same process for some of the darker scenes in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2007, 02:01 PM:

Not sure, but I have 4 prints locally running on 6K lamps without any hint of blistering. If you are seeing white specs/bubbles you need to verify you don't have your lamp focused down too tightly in the middle of the frame creating a hot spot. Ideally though you need to get a heat filter and also check to see if your projector is water cooled. If it is, your water circulator pump may have died or the tank is low.

What make and size of lamphouse? Also what projector?

Posted by Donna Sylvester (Member # 726) on 07-23-2007, 02:48 PM:

Lamphouse is a Xetron, 2000w. Projector is a Century S.A. The spots are all over the screen, not centralized in any one location. The fan is not water cooled.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2007, 02:57 PM:

If you run the projector and lamp without film in the projector, are the corners of the screen dark, or is the light reasonably uniform? If you do have dark corners, back off on the bulb's focus controls so that you have even light.

Being a 2000 watt lamp, that is probably all that it is. Let us know if you did not have have dark corners and we can continue troubleshooting.

Posted by Donna Sylvester (Member # 726) on 07-24-2007, 12:28 AM:

The light output was pretty uniform--no dark corners. I backed the bulb off a little anyway.

The last time this happened was with my Sleepy Hollow print.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-24-2007, 08:39 AM:

If this is an older xetron you may have a hot reflector and probably should put a heat filter in the nose cone
the older xetrons like all hot mirror lamphouses were bad at blistering film

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-25-2007, 06:48 PM:

If you have multiple spots either the reflector is bad or the lamphouse is grossly mis-aligned. Use of something like the Kinoton lamphouse alignment jig is a good place to start. Then touch up and finalize with the USL Light meter. If you do have the old type mirror or one thats damaged you shouldn't waste your $$ on a heat filter, they're about 1/2 the cost of the conversion made by Big Sky. Convert and get three times more light on your screen. You also get rid of the dang spider at the front of the reflector... that spider eats up some light and is NLA should it fall apart...

Mark