This is topic Flawless Digital Projector? Think Again!!! in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Robert Saba (Member # 259) on 12-11-1999, 04:08 PM:
I'm quite sure everyone has heard word on the "new" digital motion picture projectors, more specifically called 'DLP'(Digital Light Processing). I work at a certain test theatre for the DLP (I won't say any names, but the first letter is 'C', the last is 'K', and the middle letters are 'INEMAR'. Figure it out.). I am a film purist by nature, and have always, since day one, been somewhat closed-minded to this idea. There were obviously going to be negative differences in color contrast, color saturation, and resolution in the picture, as with any telecine transfer to video. On top of that, if something were to go wrong internally with the projector, it wouldn't be a matter of rigging the gate tension or replacing a platter motor. It's out of the trained projectionist's hands, and that is the reason I am posting this message. Approximately a week and a half ago, the Q-Bit (SCSI drive) unit was "holding out" on the system, causing the DLP to freeze every so often. I hope every theater willing to adopt this system of exhibition is ready to pay for a DLP technician. Now I am taking into consideration that this IS a prototype, and it was the hard drive that continued to lock up, but the finished product is based on the same idea. Besides -- what better a time to bash it?
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-11-1999, 05:26 PM:
I seriously doubt the the "locking up" that you speak of is not related to the hard drive. Although I've yet to see the system I'm pretty sure that the drives are RAIDed SCSI drives, used for every high performance server just about in existance, even the server that this sight is on is no doubt on such a system. For those who don't know what RAID is its Redundant Array of Independant Disks. Simply meaning that if a drive fails or is not able to be read, the system automatically reads the information off the mirror of that drive. All of this is done virtually simultainously. The hiccup that you saw was either a glitch in the software or a temporary bottle neck in processor bandwith. Both of these problems are very common in Beta systems, which you DO have one of. I imagine that the projection booth operator in the future will be more of a systems administrator than an "operator" controlling somthing similar to a large netapp server and gigabit switching, and all the projectors will be networked to a central location. Moving movies will be as simple as clicking on which auditorium you want the movie to play in. The technology for all this already exists and is realitivy inexpensive.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-11-1999, 05:55 PM:
Ack! No! NT/Unix admin stuff is my real job! That's the last thing that I'd want to deal with at a movie theatre!
It'll be an interesting day when the usher comes into the booth and says that customers are complaining about "poor NFS performance" and the projectionist has to start debugging cabling and switches and routers just to get the "movie" back onscreen.
Upgrades would be "fun" too; Disney - "You need up upgrade to Movie Server v. 2.1.72" in order to show "Toy Story 5"; Universal - "Jurassic Park 8" is only supported under Movie Server v.2.1.70 with patch cluster 231236"
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-11-1999, 06:04 PM:
I have seen the systems also freeze and hang to a blue screen
Posted by Erich Loepke (Member # 166) on 12-11-1999, 07:35 PM:
Something I'm really afraid of with DLP or any other video projection system is the short product lifecycles that will become commonplace. With 35mm, you can take the oldest projector and the newest film and have a show. Don't count on being able to do that with DLP! I've read the threads on this forum dealing with best/worst projector, and what always amazes me is that there are quite a few older projectors still giving great service. Will you see a 50 year-old DLP projector? I think not! Hell, it'll be obsolete in less than a year, and there won't be any factory support for it after a few years. When those nanomirrors start burning out, the theater will have to buy a whole new "upgrade" DLP system.Then there's the question of software upgrades. There may come a time when an older DLP system can't run a new "film" because the older system doesn't have the latest decompression software or a fast enough processor. Maybe we'll see something like this: "Star Wars Episode 3: Minimum system requirements--Pentium XI/2.2GHz processor, DLP projection system version 5.4.12 or greater. Minimum 560GB hard disk space."
At least with film, it didn't matter whether you were running an old Powers hand-crank projector or the latest Christie--you still got the maximum performance possible with the given equipment.
I don't know, but these DLP units are expensive. I don't see the theater that doesn't even spend money for xenon lamps or good splicing tape shelling out lots of money for short-lived DLP systems that will have to be replaced every couple of years.
I really hate to see yet another facet of technology go the way of computers for these reasons. Maybe I'm just being wishful, but the future of film may be better than I thought.
Unless the DLP people address the product lifecycle issue, DLP may commit suicide. And maybe that's not so bad after all!
Posted by Chris Erwin (Member # 176) on 12-11-1999, 08:39 PM:
I think the major theater chains all have to get the bad taste of how bad a failed DLP unit can be before they make their final decisions. I hope I never see this technology make it into mainstream. I think it has potential in a specialty venue, put not to replace feature length 35mm exhibition. The point about the new film and old projector is a very good one. I've seen first run films projected by old BX-60's that are well maintained,and they look as good as if they were shown with a brand new Simplex or Century. Computers aren't the same. Try to run current windows programs on PC's made before 1990. Compare these two analogies. Which one stands the test of time?--Chris
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 12-11-1999, 08:56 PM:
That's right Chris! Take that 35mm film ANYWHERE in the world and you can still show it because everything is standardized.
Posted by Erich Loepke (Member # 166) on 12-11-1999, 09:35 PM:
Try running current Windows programs on a PC made before 1998 and you'll understand what I mean about hardware/software lifecycle issues. You don't need to go all the way back to 1990 to find PCs that won't run current programs. I just don't want to see film presentation caught in the same old chicken-and-egg dilemma that drives the computer industry. That is, faster hardware is introduced, and more complex applications are written to use it. Soon, everyone needs new computers to even be able to run the most basic applications, etc. etc.Of course, the digital folks will say "Film is a 100 year-old old-fashioned technology, and the time is now to have digital cinema. Hell, why not, everything else is digital, so why not films?" I repair digital cell phones for a living (though I'd rather be a projectionist), and I can tell you with all certainty that digital call quality is LESS than analog sound quality. Digital's only advantage is an economic one; more cellular users in a system. Same for digital cinema. Of course all "prints" will exist in virtual reality only; they can be wiped out much easier than a physical print. Anyone think of that yet? But you can have all the "prints" available with the click of a mouse. No need to spend $$$$ for 35mm prints, some of which come back in poor shape from lousy booth practice.
Don't think for a moment that digital "prints" can't be stolen!! In fact, I believe they're much easier to steal than actual film. It's hard to sneak off with 10000 feet of film; it's easy to run off with a few DVD-Rs or better yet, download them to your home computer! The enterprising hacker will never quit trying to outsmart whatever system is used to "safeguard" these "prints" against being stolen.
In the modern hasty rush to "go digital" in every area of life, seldom does anyone stop to consider what the potential drawbacks may be. No, everyone seems to be sold on the "digital is better" axiom.
Posted by Scott Ribbens (Member # 180) on 12-11-1999, 10:32 PM:
Top quality presentation? Want the best presentation? Want to make a real splash with your movie? Disney has answered that question! FANTASIA 2000 to be released in IMAX 70!
They are even building a new IMAX out here in California for it.I don't see them building a new DLP Theatre for it! 
------------------
Scott
Posted by Erich Loepke (Member # 166) on 12-12-1999, 12:31 AM:
Scott,I'll have to keep on top of that one. There's a Regal IMAX theater only a few miles from me. One of these days, I'll see a DLP presentation in my area as well, and I'll be able to compare that to the films I've seen recently.
Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 12-12-1999, 05:59 AM:
I saw my first bit of DLP the other day... The DVD that wes running looked really good... Of course, it was only a 30 foot throw and the screen size was only about 8 feet long...Of course, I was kind of upset, because we were trying to hook a Nintendo 64 up to it (which is the only real advantage to DLP that I see), but it wouldn't work...
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 12-12-1999, 11:33 AM:
"Upgrades would be "fun" too; Disney - "You need up upgrade to Movie Server v. 2.1.72" in order to show "Toy Story 5"; Universal -
"Jurassic Park 8" is only supported under Movie Server v.2.1.70 with patch cluster 231236"Ha! Really! And since the Internet will probably used for delivery/authentication, don't forget to read RFC 17576 - "Avoiding Real-Time Movie Denial-of-Service with IPv12"
Someone (Scott?) pointed out that with only a few grand (well, maybe about 12G), a person could already have "HiDef" at home by just buying a 35mm projector and a used stereo processor.
Now of course, a homeowner is not going to do that, but for a regular theater, it's still going to be quite a while before e-cinema is practable.
To compaire cost: our company bulit an 8-plex 5 years ago. The cost of one, 300 seat, THX approved auditorium cost $60,000 (no digital.)
Yet, let's say they get the cost of an e-cinema projector to half of what it is today. That still $50,000 just for the projector.
I don't think we have to worry about new jobs just yet.
Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 12-12-1999, 01:41 PM:
I wonder how Digital Projection looks with a "normal" movie. Sure, you might get raves when you show animated and/or computer-generated material digitally. And let's not forget that STAR WARS EPISODE ONE: THE PHANTOM MENACE was entirely manipulated by computers and then spit back onto film. It's no wonder there were many positive reviews for its digital presentation.But what could Digital Projection really do for a movie like THE HORSE WHISPERER? And when will a studio have the nerve to show us a movie like THE HORSE WHISPERER in a digital presentation in order to get an honest evaluation of its potential?
Posted by Robert Saba (Member # 259) on 12-12-1999, 01:58 PM:
Now that we're on the topic of live action on DLP... That's one thing I forgot to mention, Greg. In the trailers of our Toy Story 2 presentation, I believe Bicentennial Man was about the only live action trailer that was shown. I sat about 15-20 ft from the screen, and I could still clearly see pixilation. One other thing... Of all things, our policy trailer looks absolutely HORRIBLE on it. The colors seem to be a little TOO saturated and the detail is wiped out. If I remember correctly, I witnessed that some of the reds were bleeding as well.
Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 12-12-1999, 11:24 PM:
Robbie, if you sat 1 foot in front of a TV set, you would see the pixels too. They (TI) recommend that you sit at least one screen height back. That is where the bar is placed in the front part of the theatres.Yes the Cinemark policy trailer was indeed transferred badly. Too much red. This was referred to the TI technician.
Also, a technician came out from QuBit and made parameter changes in the player to IMMEDIATELY transfer control to the mirror drive if it cannot read from the set it is on. What was happening was the following:
Mirror set A is reading the disk.
Mirror set A has a problem.
Mirror set A continued to retry for 3 seconds.
Projector head only had 1/2 second of output; hence 2 1/2 seconds of lockup.
The technician made the following change
Mirror set A is reading the disk.
Mirror set A has a problem.
Mirror set B takes over. IMMEDIATELY.
No loss of picture.
There will be more discussion of this come Friday when we start Bicentenial Man on DLP.
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 12-13-1999, 09:51 AM:
Sounds complex... what happens if both mirror sets 'A' and 'B' fail? Will it still lock up?Also, when you sit too close to video screens you always see pixels, but seeing film grain always looks better (in my opinion) than video pixels. How dense does a DLP array have to be so that you see the film grain rather than the video pixels?
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-13-1999, 11:50 AM:
Michael,Acutally its not as complex as it seems. Just about all controll of the operation is hardware based, so there is not much to configure. And I think Scott is right, the future "projectionist" is going to have alot of network engineering involved. If Cisco was smart they'd jump all over this... I wonder what OS they're currently using. I can see a setup with a centralized server, Terabytes of storage (Ok maybe that's overkill)... hmmm maybe annother new logo for the booth door... Compaq Inside? Wow the cost of operating this just keeps going up and up, an MCSE tech is FAR more expensive than some kid earning minimum wage... looks like I better start working on that Cisco cert....
Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 12-13-1999, 12:10 PM:
They are not using any traditional OS's on the QUBit Player. It is there own code. The player has a small touch pad to control the mouse for loading the "print" and 5 playback control buttons. That's IT!.