Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Framing question

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Posted by Erick Ojeda (Member # 216) on 01-15-2000, 09:17 PM:

Hi,

I have a quick question on getting the film in frame. I'm not in the booth all of the time, but there are times I have to run some shifts in the booth. I run simplex projectors, and sometimes I start the film out of frame, but I try to get the film in frame all of the time. I think the presentation slacks when the film starts out of frame. How can I get the film to be in frame every time. I hate it when I start a film out of frame, even if it is a hair out of frame.

Posted by Scott Ribbens (Member # 180) on 01-15-2000, 09:43 PM:

That is a very simple thing to do. Assuming that there are no out of frame splices in the leader or from the leader into the first piece of film that is to hit the screen.

As you should have been taught to do, you need to turn the machine over by hand with the motor flywheel, watch the intermittent sprocket. When the intermittent sprocket rotates 90 degrees and then stops, you stop turning the machine over by hand. The intermittent sprocket is now in the "dwell" postion. Now you thread up the film in frame with the framing aperture at the top of the trap assembly. If you do this, you will always start in frame (providing that no one has messed with the framing knob and there are no out of frame splices). Works every time!

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quote:
"More human than human" is our motto.

Scott

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-15-2000, 09:44 PM:

First, turn the framing control to roughly it's center position.

Make yourself a loop out of a green band and run it. (Make SURE you threaded it in frame, if not, stop the projector and open the gate and fix it before proceeding. Also bear in mind "most" green bands are properly centered, but not all.) Fine tune your framing knob so the words are exactly centered top to bottom. Now, NEVER touch that framing control again.

TO THREAD IN FRAME:
Turn the projector over by hand using the flywheel on the front of the projector mounted on the side of the motor. On an XL, the flywheel will turn "down" to inch the machine forward. Notice the upper sprocket and the lower sprocket as well as the holdback sprocket (in the soundhead) will turn constantly while the "intermittent" sprocket (at the bottom of the gate) stops and starts and stops and starts. What you must do is turn the flywheel until the intermittent sprocket is in it's stopped position (between pulldowns) and leave it there. Then, simply thread your projector as you normally would (hopefully keeping the leader off of the floor) and make sure when you close the gate that one of the frames on the leader is properly centered in the framing window at the top of the gate assembly. If not, open the gate back up and try again. There is a light behind this window (assuming it is not burned out) which makes this easier.

Now before you start and once you are finished threading, go back and make sure you have threaded in frame by turning the motor flywheel a few more times. Notice that each frame on the leader pulls down quickly into the centered position on that framing window and pauses there. If when it pauses the leader is not in frame with that window, it will start out of frame and you must reopen the gate to correct the problem. Never in any circumstances should the framing control be touched during threading. (NOTE: the ONLY way you can tell if you have threaded it in or out of frame is by turning the flywheel. You cannot simply look at it without the mechanism in motion.)

Does that make sense? It's much easier to demonstrate than to try and write it out. Perhaps Joe and I can make some downloadable MPEG videos demonstrating the proper methods of threading various machines in the near future.

Posted by Scott Ribbens (Member # 180) on 01-15-2000, 10:00 PM:

quote:
Never in any circumstances should the framing control be touched during threading.

Hey Brad, I know of one instance where I have had to adjust the framing knob when threading. A theatre that I worked at once had only adjustable top masking in one of the smallest houses, and thus you had to frame when you went from scope to flat, or flat to scope. I knew exactly how much the frame knob had to be turned to be in frame, but still had to watch the start up just in case I was a little off. But for the most part I hit it right on the money.

But I guess that is the exception that proves the rule!

------------------

quote:
"More human than human" is our motto.

Scott

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-15-2000, 10:05 PM:

That should've been adjusted during the install! If the projector had a turret, then it's extremely easy to do. If not, a piece of tape on one side of the flat lens will solve the trick. Of course this would require new plates and cutting.

Still, many theaters are like that and never get those little things adjusted properly. I had forgotten about those.

Posted by Erick Ojeda (Member # 216) on 01-15-2000, 10:32 PM:

Thank you for the info Scott and Brad. I have to work tomorrow night, so I will try this. When I get home, I will tell you how it went. Thanks again.

Erick

Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 01-16-2000, 12:16 AM:

You don't necessarily need the framing window to frame your show. For instance, I have found with several different machines I have run (but not all) that the picture is in frame when the frame line is 2 perfs above the top of the trap, assuming the framing control is already set properly. Memorizing where the frameline is in relation to the top of the trap makes life easy when the framing lamp goes out and you don't have time to search for one, or don't have a spare.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 01-16-2000, 03:37 PM:

All the new auditoriums here in Hawaii are equipped with top masking only, whenever there isn't enough sideways room for the Scope picture. So this is an important framing issue which I am trying to figure out. It seems that to keep the film perfectly in frame when going back and forth between Flat and Scope, one would *always* have to reframe. It's simply the fact that the alignment of the center of the frame in the gate to the center of the screen has changed; either the screen or the frame has to be moved up and down, so it's going to have to be the frame.

Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 01-16-2000, 05:33 PM:

I used to work in a place that used bottom masking for 2.39:1. We also had to adjust framing when switching formats. I could do it when threading and get it almost perfect.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-16-2000, 11:27 PM:

>>"It's simply the fact that the alignment of the center of the frame in the gate to the center of the screen has changed; either the screen or the frame has to be moved up and down, so it's going to have to be the frame."<<

Not so quick with your "facts."

There is even more adjustments that can be made.

Since you say your auditoriums are "new" then one presumes you have turrets. All of the turrets I know allow for adjusting the lens stops in both the vertical and horizontal dimensions...as such one can move the picture and get some keystone correction in the bonus.

Older pedestals have a tilt wheel that will allow one to set the center as needed for each format (some even had stop rings so you didn't have to mark or guess).

If you have single lens projectors and tilting the pedestal/console isn't going to work, there are Perspective Change adapters that will let you shift the lens to center the picture and again you pick up keystone correction in the bonus.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-17-2000, 06:02 PM:

I train workstudy students at Mercyhurst College to thread the proj.

I have a Simplex XL (PR-1030) built in the late 50's or early 60's. It may be a little different than yours but I'm willing to bet it's 90% the same. Here's what I tell people...

1) Look at the intermittent sprocket... There will be a "ring" at the end of it. (That's the outboard bearing, if you wanna' be technical.) See if there's a bunch of red lines on that ring. (There ought to be 4 of them. Also, there ought to be another one on the "bracket" that holds the intermittent sprocket. If your proj. has these lines, yours is pretty much the same as mine...

2) Turn the FRAMING knob until the red line on the bracket is roughly vertical.

Turn your flywheel (downward) and watch the bearing/ring turn and stop when one of the red lines on the ring is lined up with the one on the bracket.

Thread the film with the frame centered in the framing window.

You ought to be in frame, now. If you DO have to make adjustments, they'll only be minor. Once you make that adjustment, you shouldn't have to do it again unless you mess up when you thread.

All the people who've worked at MH. College mess up the first day but when they get enough practice, they never make framing mistakes. I almost never have to re frame the proj. It's probably been 3-4 months since the framing knob's been touched. (Which exactly corresponds with the last time I trained somebody)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-18-2000, 08:44 AM:

I agree that once a projectionist learns the basic skill of manually advancing the intermittent to the "dwell" position and threading in frame, the framing knob should never need to be adjusted. Starting up out of frame is a sure sign of a "rookie" in the booth.

I always thought it best to do the "green band" or "RP40" setup with the framing knob near the center of its range, rather than at either extreme. That way if framing is needed during a show (e.g., an out of frame splice, heaven forbid), you have the capability of framing in either direction. I recall that some Century projectors actually had a set of embossed red lines on the intermittent and the projector light shield assembly as a guide to setting the framing knob near the center of its travel.

------------------
John Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, NY 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-18-2000, 12:32 PM:

The Simplex XL will get it's best oil circulation into the intermittent in the centered position as well.

Interestingly enough, I run the Christie Ultramittents as the bottom of their range. Since threading out of frame is simply not allowed in my book (there are plenty of usher positions to fill) and adding to that the fact I always lock the framing controls down, this forces the operator to shut down the entire show should they misthread. (You'd be surprised how quick they learn to take that extra 2 seconds during threading to avoid sounding the alarms off around the building!) My reasoning for running at the lower extreme of the travel is it controls the lower loop from flapping around, in turn lowering the possibility of loop scratching on the underside of the Ultramittent as well as lowering the noise level in the booth.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-18-2000, 03:06 PM:

We have Simplexes also; I made a round peice of paper with a plastic laminate which fits in the "FRAMING" knob. It has the word "FRAMING" just like on the knob, but also has an arrow pointing up with the word "CENTERED" on it. That way, if someone is out of frame, it can be returned to the center, or at least close. If anyone wants some, e-mail me ( lipton104@hotmail.com )and I'll make some and send them to you. You just have to cut them out and glue them in. But don't use heavy-duty glue: you might have to peel them off and reset them someday.

I (respectfully!) disagree strongly with the idea of fixing the framing knob so it can't be adjusted. While it may be a lesson to a new operator, I also feel it is a big annoyance to patrons to have a show stop, (wait for the automation to cycle) and start again. It should be used for it's intended purpose: to quickly fix a one-in-a-blue-moon, "opps!"

Besides, we know the proper way to teach new operators to thread in frame is: if they don't, they have to pick up and return with food for the next two weeks!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-18-2000, 03:42 PM:

John, on Simplexes (at least the XL line) you can simply push the "FRAME" knob inward and rotate it to the desired position. That way once the framing control is centered, simply push in and rotate the knob until the "FRAME" is level and upright.

As to locking the framing control down, not only is it a damn good lesson to a newbie, but as an added bonus when I go in to thread I don't have to wonder if the guy before me made an error during threading, racked the framing control, reset it back...and it not being quite perfectly centered. With all the ads most theaters have to run before a good solid green band comes along to ensure proper framing, very few operators are going to stand by the machine and wait for the first one to verify an exact framing. Locking the framing controls down ensures it will never be off. Besides, I can only remember one time in the last 10 years where I misframed during threading anyway...and there was a "questionable" splice at the end of the leader which I immediately corrected.

Another thing you're forgetting about racking the framing is many projectors will actually change loop size when the framing is moved! A perfectly threaded projector will suddenly become a very badly threaded projector and can cause the film to slap up against the intermittent making those annoying "little green dashes" throughout the print...which is completely unacceptable. Thus, all operators that I train learn REAL fast to do it right the first time.

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 01-18-2000, 05:39 PM:

Thanks guy's you have learned me how to frame probely on my vic8, it's very easy when you no where the framing knob has to be.I have made 2 small dots on the framing control knob/machine with red inc so i always no the position.I'll try not to touch it!

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-22-2000, 12:24 AM:

"....on Simplexes (at least the XL line) you can simply push the "FRAME" knob inward and rotate it to the desired position...."

Damn, you are right! I tried it tonight. That is the neatest thing I've seen a long time- and I've been using these projectors for about 4 years now. I wondered why there was a spring and "C" clip on the shaft. I don't think that feature is documented in the newer manual.

Thanks Brad!