This is topic Mr. Joe Redifer..... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Nic Margherio (Member # 273) on 03-04-2000, 02:17 PM:
Joe, I read your review(s) of the Christie CA-21. I was wondering if you had any experience with the Strong CNA-200? It offers many of the same features you cover with the Christie and perhaps even a little more. I have never worked with the CA-21, but the CNA-200 is BY FAR the best automation I've ever come across. Anyone else with thoughts?
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-04-2000, 03:53 PM:
Yes, the STRONG CNA Automation series does have a ton of features. But I really don't like their layout. I don't think automations need LCD screens on them (Or floppy drives and modems like Nuemades new fancy automation). With the CA21 you can tell what is going on at a quick glance, which is important for volume information. No need to navigate through menus (I hate menus, they are not my friend, unless I am in a restaraunt -- I know I know, bad joke).I don't like the ability to learn cues. It insinuates that there is a reliability problem readin' cues. If the cues were read 100% of the time, then why would it need to learn cues? I have heard many reports from the local AMC 24-plex about these things missing many cues.
I don't think that the CNA automations have the ability to control sound processors serially, but I could be wrong here. Also, they are not customizable to the individual theatre like the CA21 is.
Plus, the unit is just ugly 
Posted by Joshua Lott (Member # 240) on 03-04-2000, 05:48 PM:
I work with CNA 150's on 16 projectors, and yes they are always NOT reading all of the cues. I would say they work 90% of the time. And there are certain projectors that will work just fine for a couple of weeks and then won't work for a little while. I haven't started useing the cue learn mode. I just don't know enough about it to start playing with it. I would rather spend my time trying to figure out why they won't read the cues to begin with. Any suggestions?
Posted by Nic Margherio (Member # 273) on 03-05-2000, 04:01 PM:
I agree with you about the the "cue learn" feature being rather unnecessary - if you have a reliable failsafe/detection system. Your right, the AMC megaplexes do have a problem with cue detection but that is due to the Strong FP-350 failsafe/dector, (a real piece of crap) not the automation. In this case, the "cue learn" feature really comes in handy. Also, you can control your sound system's volume from the unit, but not serially (I think - I'll have to check on that next time I work, it may have a serial port) As for the CA-21, is there a status display for all projectors on each unit? I couldn't quite tell form the picture, but it seemed that this may be the case. Also, what do you mean about the CNA-200 not being as customizable as the CA-21?
Posted by Nic Margherio (Member # 273) on 03-05-2000, 04:16 PM:
Joshua, it sounds like you have the same problem I do - the failsafe/detection system is not very reliable. Cue learn can help you with this. What it essentially does is learns the placement of the cues for a particular movie and substitutes a cue if one is not read from the film. There are a lot of finer points to learn though and ALL of your operators have to know EXACTLY how to use it or else you will end up with shows cueing out before they are supposed to, lights coming on when they're not supposed to and all sorts of other fun stuff like that. Another thing to think about before you start using it is if your prints move around from day to day a lot, it really won't do you that much good. The manual (at least for the CNA-200) has fairly decent overview of the feature and is helpful in learning how to set up and use it. If you have any other questions, I would be glad to answer them if I can. (I have never worked with the CNA-150 model, but I do have a lot of experience with different Strong automations that have the cue learn feature.)
Posted by Joshua Lott (Member # 240) on 03-05-2000, 07:26 PM:
I think I will take a look at the cue learn function, and to your answer no we don't move prints around on a daily basis. I have browsed over the manual and it looks like it explains it in detail, but haven't had much of a chance to look at it. If I need any help I will be sure to let you know. THANKS!
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-05-2000, 08:44 PM:
Nic-What I mean about the CA21 being customizable by the theatre is this: When you order a CA21, you get your choice of what buttons are on the face of the unit. If you don't want a "Mono" button, you can replace that with any function you want, such as "Close Auditorium Doors" or "Flush Booth Toilet" or anything you could want. It's all in the firmware. If you have curtains, then your firmware has programming to control your curtains. Then there is the "preshow sequence". This can do anything you like, and is determined when you order the unit. Say you want your curtains to close 1 minute before the show starts, bringing up the screen lights to shine on them (or whatever you could want to be done). You don't have to set up cue funtions for this -- it just does it. Of course, you can turn it off.
Among the many features being added to the CA21 are:
Ability to monitor (and control) any CA21 from any other CA21 via the RS-485 status panel lines. If somebody complains about the volume or whatever from the other side of the building, you can dial up that projector by pressing a button, and change it. Yes, status will be displayed, such as lens format, motor on or off, changeover open or closed, sound format, and current volume.
Ability to cancel alarm from any CA21 in the building (helpful for fire alarms when they all go off at once. Just cancel one unit and get out).
Add to this the ability to interlock any projectors in the building without extra wiring, and a slew of options in the setup mode.
The status panels are the most informative that I've ever seen as well. Just by a simple glance, you can see all the projectors and their status, such as idle (failsafes down), Threaded (no timer set), threaded (with timer set), in trailers, in feature, in credits, or dropped (same as idle, of course).
Posted by Nic Margherio (Member # 273) on 03-06-2000, 01:25 AM:
Sounds rather impressive, I'd like to be able to see it someday.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-06-2000, 03:14 AM:
Ooops! Just got an e-mail from Pennywise saying that they don't want to cut into their "CA-link" software by adding the ability to control on CA21 from another. Anybody out there using the CA-link?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-06-2000, 12:54 PM:
If you guys need to customize what the automation does then the Eprad Ultimation is one you should look at. As far as customization features go it offes more of that feature than the Strongs versions do.
Personally I prefer the LCD screen to all the LED's....geez all those LED's make me look cross eyed after staring at them for a while where the LCD screen gives you a definite readout and since you have to walk over to it to read it you're more likely to be paying attention to whats gong on.....and where you need to be to make a change in settings if there is a missed cue.
The Strong automations are later gestations of the Ultimation and are built by TL Industries, Eprads parent Co. I installed some of the very first Ultimations for Classic Cinemas way back in the early 80's and they are still functioning to this day without a glitch.
Cue detectors can be a problem and I agree on the cue learn function. DON'T USE IT! Non synchronus motors drift in speed over the day and the cues will end up occuring at the wrong place. It does however work well if you have Sync motors but I don't advocate its use.
If you have older contact type cues don't expect them to work reliabliy at all....ever. You need to have some type of optical cue detector and have its clearances set up and adjusted by a qualified tech. Also keep it very clean and you'll find that it will always work. Who cares how it looks, if it works reliably? Some of the worst looking equipment also functions the best.
Mark
Posted by Nic Margherio (Member # 273) on 03-06-2000, 09:44 PM:
Mark, the cue learn function actually accomodates line voltage fluctuations via the "cue window factor" which is set by the user according to speed variations in your particular building. As for optical cue detectors, the Strong FP-350 is just that and it works about as well as SDDS. The best detector system I ever worked with was a contact type, I don't remember what make or model it was, but we NEVER had to replace cue foils EVER, it read them every time.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-07-2000, 03:14 PM:
Hi Nick,
Well you are the first one I've met that has had good luck with contact sensors. I've see just about every variation of them in the last 18 years including one that had amplifiers that were supposed to make up for the slop(and resistance) that develops in the bearings. Perhaps you run a higher take up tension, and in that case they may work fine. While there can be problems with optical detectors too, not just the FP-350 in particuluar, but also with the Component Engineering unit as well. The secret lies in correctly setting up the clearances between the film and detector by a competant tech. Then keeping them clean
Regarding the cue window setting. If you are in an area that has voltage fluctuations and/or if you are running a machine with a non synchronus motor such as an old Century, or Brenkert for instance,then you have to set the cue window way too wide in order for it to work. My personal experience with the cue learn function has been good and bad, but definately not consistant from theater to theater and machine to machine.If you have a booth full of Simplexe's on 5 Star's that are running sync motors then it WILL work fine...ditto with a booth full of Christies or that sort of stuff with sync motors. But go to a Brenkert mounted on a 9030 then you'll see if drift all over the place making tightly timed cues go off time by as much as 10 to 15 seconds.
Mark
Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 03-08-2000, 12:22 AM:
I have also had good luck with contact sensors. As long I kept the contacts clean, they worked very well.
Posted by Colin Wiseley (Member # 247) on 03-08-2000, 07:44 AM:
We have an old Perdue (not the chicken guy) Automation with a contact sensor that works great. It only has two cues, one for lights on, and one for shutdown, but it reads them every time.------------------
Colin Wiseley
Lyric Theatre
Blacksburg, VA
www.thelyric.com
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-09-2000, 09:40 AM:
Good proximity detectors are far more reliable than contact type
Up here we have almost always used standard honeywell or cruzette sensors and they never mis cues and are usually set about 1/2" back from the film and read a cue across the frame line. For years the standard automation in Canada was the Cinemation MK4 and the domestic clones the BTS and the Famous Players ShowMan2
Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 03-09-2000, 02:13 PM:
Gordon, was the cinemation MK4 produced at 1000 Gerrard Street East, in Toronto? I seem to recall some experience with the MK VI model that was practically fool proof.
just wondering? and oh, what was the anticipated life of the relays incorporated in these models?
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-09-2000, 04:59 PM:
No that is the Cinetron MK ? that my company made
The cinemation was made by esoldomatic in London and is a pegboard design
I think brad has a picture of one in one of his posts
The cinetron is of course a superior unit
The relays have a life span of about 1000 operations and most can be got from granger
Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 03-13-2000, 03:40 AM:
We use the CA-Link on the big brother of the CA 21, the CA 100. This unit is the ultimate in cinema automation and we install all with a CA Link. The PC screen of the Link has a status screen that has a moving time line tracking the progress of all sessions, how long to start, how long 'til end, how long between sessions etc - it is the single best piece of automation technology I have used.All sessions can be loaded with times and programs for the week in advance all from the centrally located CA -Link. Anything that leaves the projectionist free to concentrate on on-screen presentation is an advantage, that's why we specify the CA 100 and CA link.