This is topic HELP: Prints getting marked with "Dots" in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-05-2000, 11:41 PM:
Ok, the projector in question is a Christie with a Dolby Digital reader on the top. It has been marking prints with small dots that show up on the right hand side of the screen. It gradually gets worse and worse unitl there are dots all up and down that side of the picture. So far it has damaged American Beauty back in October-wasn't too bad though. Music of the Heart in November-not to bad either. Bond 19-horribly damaged. And Green Mile-attrocious. We have inspected all the rollers several times and can't seem to find anything that would be marking it. The last time MTS came through our theater we told them about it and they couldn't find anything wrong either. Please help! This is THX theater and one of our best auditoriums. But we can't keep on wrecking film like this.Any ideas?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-06-2000, 12:11 AM:
Can you send me a sample foot of damaged film?
Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 03-06-2000, 12:31 AM:
Sounds like the projector is getting miss-threaded. If the "dots" are white then they are made by the sprocket trying to punch a how in the film. (hard to do with polyester.)I always feel for the sprocket teeth with my finger after I thread, before I start the projector.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-06-2000, 12:46 AM:
Brad, yes, I could.Ian, nope. At first we thought someone was not loading the dolby digital reader tight enough and the film was rubbing against itself. However the dots appeared on Green mile two days after we started running it. The only people who had loaded the film-myself and another experienced projectionist-took special care to load it properly becuase OO7 had been damaged so badly before.
Posted by Paul Powers (Member # 332) on 03-06-2000, 03:43 AM:
Well this is just a chance but I had a similar occurance with our print of "True Crime" It started as a little speckels just off of center and as the print ran a few more times it got worse. It turned out there was a hot spot from the lamp and we were actually burning the print.
Might be worth looking into. Good Luck!
-=|Paul
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-06-2000, 11:55 AM:
I had this very same problem a few months ago. Although I have Century proj. instead of Christie I, too, have to suggest it may be a pad roller.At first, I didn't think it was a pad roller but I looked closer and found a very, very small nick on one of them. (On the holdback spkt.)
Actually, I sent a snip of film to Brad and pretty much as soon as he got it he knew what it was. I looked where he told me and "Ka-Ching!" there it was! Amazing!
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-06-2000, 09:43 PM:
I took a closer look at the damaged film today and here is what it looks like. It is a very concentrated band of dots aproximately 20mm from the soundtrack. It's almost like a line.I'll get a film clip to you asap. I was into work today but was to busy with other things to snip off a piece.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-07-2000, 12:04 AM:
Dustin:Do you really mean 20mm from the analog soundtrack, which would certainly not be the edge of the image? Can you tell if the damage is on the emulsion side or the back side of the prints? What color are the "dots"?
When scratches are in a perfect line, and don't "wander" side-to-side, the damage is likely occuring at a place where the film is being edge-guided, such as a flanged roller. Another possibility is an incorrectly sized loop above or below the gate, such that the loop is contacting a stationary part of the projector.
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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-07-2000, 12:10 AM:
Dustin:Oops 
I just got my mind in gear after a day on airplanes and in airports. 20mm from the analog soundtrack WOULD be the right hand edge of the image.
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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-07-2000, 11:16 PM:
Well, I got a piece snipped off today and will have it in the mail tommorrow. Whatever was doing this must be fixed becuase we have had American Beauty in this theater for a week now and their is no damage. Following the pattern of previously damaged movies there should be some dots by now. I'd still like to find out what was doing it, in case it happens again.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-08-2000, 02:40 PM:
Hey Brad, maybe I'm blind but I can't seem to find a mailing address for you anywhere. Post it here (or email me if you prefer) and I'll get that film sample out to you.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-08-2000, 03:37 PM:
Dustin-Film-Tech is currently relocating (the company, not the web site) so any mailing address that you would have would be obsolete now anyway. As I write this, he is in transit.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-08-2000, 06:31 PM:
#@%*!!American Beauty is starting to get marked, the problem hasn't gone away. This is really getting to me 
.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-08-2000, 07:12 PM:
Seriously, recheck every single roller with a flashlight for a small knick or burr. Take your time doing this, as it might be easy to overlook. The reason it may have taken American Beauty so long to get damaged is because Technicolor probably processed your print with PhotoGuard or ImageGuard (same thing, essentially) which can make it EXTREMELY resistant to scratching for awhile.
Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 03-09-2000, 01:22 AM:
Dustin,
I had a similar problem with a Christie. Found it the same day it started though. Turned out to be crud on the sound drum.
Other than that, have fun with a flashlight, the rollers and your fingers.
How big do you gentlemen make the bottom loop? Not knowing which Christie proj. you have, but Christie had this thing with their "Ultramittents" if the loops are too big the film rubs the bottom of the intermittent causing scratches.
Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 03-09-2000, 06:05 PM:
I'm sure this is not the case, but...When was your Dolby Digital reader installed? I heard something about bad rollers (manufacturing error of some kind) on some of them from a colleague that received a print with the kind of damage you've described.
Oh, and also check the sound drum of the Dolby Digital reader. On the other hand, if something does get stuck on the sound drum of an SRD reader, the print makes weird noises when going through there.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-09-2000, 06:39 PM:
I've suspected our Dolby Digital reader for a while now but haven't been able to find anything on it that could cause the damage. It was installed in October of 97.
Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 03-10-2000, 04:08 PM:
Have you checked if the damage occurs only when you're running SRD prints, then? I'm assuming that you only thread through the SRD reader when running a Dolby Digital feature.On which side of the print does the damage occur? Are we talking about the emulsion side?
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-10-2000, 07:47 PM:
The Dolby Digital reader always gets threaded becuase we never run on non-dobly print in that theater due to shitty stereo sound.To address the concern over the ultramittent, it is not that because we load every one of our Chrities the same way (expcepting the two with Dolby Digital Readers, which doesn't affect the ultramittent anyways). Per Chrisie recomendations, the film is looped over the middle constant speed assembly gate while it is in the open posistion and pulled tight, then the gate is closed. It also looks like the bottum of the ultramittent is guarded.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-10-2000, 11:11 PM:
Film-Tech
351 East Brentford Circle
Littleton, Co 80126Send the sample strip there. We're here and waiting. 
On the Christie projectors, thread it up and then OPEN the lower pad roller (just below the Ultramittent) and turn the projector over by hand. You want that loop to just BARELY tug on that open pad roller...and no more. That's the ideal setting. Just don't forget to reclose it.
For the top loop, you want it to be as large as possible WITHOUT the film bending over "backwards" at the top of the gate bands at the largest point of the loop.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-18-2000, 08:41 PM:
Received the sample piece of film and having a damn hard time determining what is causing it. Here's what it is NOT:
It is not a pad roller.
It is not a misthread.
It is not a loop scratch.
It is not happening in the gate.
It is not happening in the soundhead or SRD penthouse.
It is not a typical longitudinal "scratch", but does look like a pad roller mark (just not in the correct place to BE a pad roller).
Here's what it IS:
It is on the emulsion, projected right side...but NOT at the edge of the image area. In fact, it is approximately one SDDS width inward from the edge of the image and the damage itself is also the width of an SDDS track.
I'm thinking it is something outside of the projector causing this, most likely the failsafe. Please post what type of failsafe you have (brand and model) and what type of platter you are using.
(And congratulations on being the first person to send me a strip of film that I didn't immediately know the cause of the damage.)
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-18-2000, 10:22 PM:
Brad could you scan the sample so we could all see the damage?
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-19-2000, 10:11 PM:
Platter: Stong AW3
Failsafe: Speco 30026
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2000, 12:22 AM:
Strong doesn't make the AW3 platter...Christie does. Which is it?Anyone familiar with the SPECO failsafes? I've never worked with them, but am wondering if it is possible that the proxy detector has slipped and is gently riding on the film.
Where do you put your automation cues?
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-20-2000, 09:20 AM:
Oops . AW3 are the platters on the old side. Strong are on the new side. The one with the bad projector is Strong.Cues go as follows:
Start: Just before first trailer, on the leader
1st: End of trailers, on the policy trailer just before sound format trailer
2nd: Start of credits, at the begining of the credits
3rd: End of film, a few frames before the end of the MPAA rating notice
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2000, 05:50 PM:
No, I meant where physically are the cues placed on the film? Sorry.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-20-2000, 06:55 PM:
Well don't I feel like a dumbass . They are vertical cues all the way across the film on the outboard side as the film sits on the platter.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-20-2000, 07:11 PM:
Without actually seeing the damage here is a long shot
The rollers on the Strong platters often have a seam in them where they were injection molded. I have seen the odd roller with a overlarge seem that extended in past the flange that has put some odd marks on
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2000, 07:22 PM:
I will play around with my digital camera and try to get the light refracted just right to make a picture of the damage. Last time I tried to do this, it wasn't easy.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-20-2000, 08:12 PM:
Well, this only started to happen around October and we've had the same platters since November of 97 when the addition was built. If there was a flange there it would have been there all along. But ok, I'll look and thanks for the idea.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-21-2000, 11:26 AM:
I assume the platters have removable centre pieces. try swapping the centre pieces with another screen and see if the problem moves
Also what type of guidance rollers ( the ones above and below the machine that the film makes it twist on)
I have seen the film cup into the flange on some of those rollers so they add an abraded mark that increases over time
If my memory is right the Specco is similar to the kelmar cue sensor
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-01-2000, 12:10 AM:
Well, its not the brains (center peices, whatever). I swapped them and Drowning Mona ran through the suspect ones for about a week and a half and not the slightest sign of damage.
Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 04-01-2000, 07:51 AM:
Sounds like it comes back to fixed rollers outside the projector. Top candidates to me would be failsafe, upper/lower guide rollers, and the fixed rollers sets on the platters themselves that are used regardless of the center feed.
I have a strange feeling it's a mis-thread. One of your operators may be getting around a keeper rather than under it, or hace the rollers reversed.
For instance, the "first and last" rollers on the Strong Platter are swivel types. They can be reversed 180-degrees so the film runs over the keeper. The keeper should always be on the ouside of the curve as the film goes around the pulley. If one of those rollers is reversed it will mark the film as you describe. Check the keepers for any wear spots -- those things are not designed to turn freely.Pat
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-01-2000, 09:58 AM:
I'll check all the rollers again.Interesting idea about the misloading. Problem is its only happening on this one projector. If someone was misloading like that it would show up on more prints. But I'll around about it none the less.
Posted by Joseph Pandolfi (Member # 223) on 04-01-2000, 10:55 AM:
We just had a similar problem on American Beauty two weeks ago. There was yellow dots on the far right side of screen against the masking. The head projectionist re-aligned the tension fail-safe roller coming from the platter. What I noticed on the non-soundtrack side of the film when I shined a flashlight at a certin angle that the side of the film was quite worn with surface marks.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-02-2000, 01:15 PM:
Do you have the strong tension failsafes mounted on the top of the platter?
I have seen them do some wild and wonderfull marks especially is the two rubber rings are flatted.
Of all tension failsafes it is the poorest design yet.
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 04-06-2000, 10:11 AM:
Dustin, ISOLATE the unit causing the damage. Take a virgin piece of film 10-15 feet long and splice it in a loop. Thread this through the projector only (leave it out of the SRD reader for now).Turn the projector on and let it run a few hundred times through the machine and see if the scratches develop. If not, thread through the SRD reader and repeat the process. Keep adding components (and using a new longer loop when necessary) until you get to the unit that's causing the problem.
When you've at least isolated the major component, it will then be easy to narrow the search down.
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