This is topic All About Splices-some questions for you guys in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-08-2000, 01:07 AM:
 
Ok, a few straightforward questions.

1) Have you ever heard of 'overlap' splices. The other theater in town uses these. one end of the splice has and extra perf left on it and is overlaped with the other by one. What is the purpose of this?

2) What kind of splicing tape should be used? Not brand neames, just general types. Clear, opaque, zebra, what? And please provide solid reasoning for this one, not opinions.
 


Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 03-08-2000, 03:58 AM:
 
Ok Dustin, here are some straigtforward answers for ya:

1. The reason for that EXCESSIVE overlap is to create a stronger splice than just the tape itself. It goes through the projecter much easier and keeps you from losing audio on the analog track. Normally during a splice you end up with a minor gap. What this theater has done is in theory a good idea, but is also a bad idea. The sprocket overlap can be seen on film if it is a scope presentation, where the entire frame is used. On a flat presentation you wont see it because the area that is projected will not be affected. If you want to know how to modify your splicer to create an appropriate overlap, go to the Projection Tips section of this site. It will give you step by step instructions on how to make the modifications.

2. On to the tape questions. I HATE, and I mean HATE, Zebra tape. This goes back to the scope presentation problem, where all of the frame is projected. The Zebra tape will be seen on screen. Opaque tape is for when you are lazy and want to cheat. It is so that operators that don't want to spend any real quality time on thier prints can make a VERY easy to see joint mark. I admit I use them between those god awful commercials, but NEVER in a print. The splice WILL be seen on screen and your audio will cut out, and you could lose your digital sync if you are not careful as well. The best bet is always clear tape. ALWAYS CLEAR TAPE. The reason so many operators wont use it is because it is hard to find the joints for breakdown. Well this shouldnt be a problem if you properly mark the joints. You can get a yellow tape that is just wide enough to mark the sides of the film at the joint. Apply this tape BEFORE you apply the splice, otherwise you will end up with pieces of wadded up tape in your projector. You can also do what I do, I use 3/4 inch white paper labels cut thinly. These are cheap and easy to apply, avoiding the frame and the audio/digital tracks. They are also VERY easy to see. Just make sure you apply marking tape BEFORE you apply the splice.

I hope this was helpful.

------------------
"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"
 


Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-08-2000, 08:47 AM:
 
Yeah, there's really no need to overlap splices. First, the tape should be strong enough to hold the "butted" ends together. Second, there are some rollers with "keepers" that won't allow the increased thickness to pass through smoothly (the Xetron payout head swing arm rollers are one.)

Cement splicers used to make overlapping splices. Maybe there's an old timer out there who keeps overlapping splices.

Most everyone uses the clear splicing tape. I like the Nuemade, but there are several other good brands out there. Depending on the temperture, humidity and use (where you are), one brand might be better than another.
 


Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-08-2000, 09:36 AM:
 
Oh, yeah... The reason most people use clear tape is because the zebra and opaque tape block the frame and/or the soundtracks.

The opaque tape blocks everything, including about half of top of one frame and the bottom of the next. Looks pretty bad.

The zebra tape will block a lot of the SDDS tracks, a small amount of the other soundtracks, and a small portion of the top/bottom of the frame for anamorphic films. I've seen where some people will pull the zebra tape out just a little farther, and apply it so the yellow edge of the tape covers the optical track. Supposedly, this keeps the SDDS track clear, and covers the optical track to keep from getting that little 'pop'. But, you have to be careful, and I would'nt suggest it. Eventually, you will miss and cover something else. Supposedly, all the digital systems can recover gracefully from missing a few frames, but why push it?

If your splicer is adjusted correctly, and the tape is of good quality, there shouldn't be any problems.

It's fairly easy to learn other tricks to see where the reel ends are, without requiring zebra or opaque tape. A bright light shinning on the film (to see the edge texture,) lightly holding your finger on the film edge, not running the table motor at close to the speed of light, etc.

I bought a microphone stand (which we also use for sound EQ's) and a cheap worklight. I position it so it shines on the film, but not out the port window.

I first find the splices by looking or feeling for the tape edge with my finger. I place a peice of tape on the film just after the splice, and then start breaking down. The tape shows me when I'm getting near the splice, and can slow down the motor just before, then feel for it with my fingers.

To gain a little more time, I mounted a short peice of threaded rod on the other side of our makeup table to use as a reel spindle. After I splice the tail of the feature onto the tail leader, I put the makeup table on 'slow.'

While that's going, I put the reel I just did onto the extra spindle, and splice the head leader on. I spin the reel by hand to wind the leader on, and drop it into the can. Then I get the next reel ready by either winding the tail leader on (if it was left on- you never know who made it up,) or taking off the tape holding the leader. I can 'time' the speed of the table motor such that after getting the next reel ready, the reel being wound is near the splice.

Probably told you more than you wanted to know....!
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-08-2000, 02:37 PM:
 
In reply,

I hate zebra tape also. Just wanted to know what the group opinion was.

As far as overlap splices go, I think they're useless. I have never seen a film break do a weak splice unless there was a wrap, in which case you want it to break on the splice. Maybe its just our booth environment, I don't know. But our splices are normally strong enough without an overlap.

As far as white versus clear tape-we normally use white tape for everything except breaks, in which case we use clear, and tearing down, which of course we use clear for. The white tape we use is semi-transparent. I don't know how much it takes to 'cover up' the soundtrack, but we've never had any noticable problems on the splices. Our DTS units are more than capable of missing one frame and not kicking out as are our Dolby Digital units.

Anyways, I'll build Ninth Gate with clear tape tommorrow and see if I cna notice any drastic improvement.
 


Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-08-2000, 09:09 PM:
 
Take that white tape and throw it in the trash. It's junk. It _will_ cause audible "pops" in the optical track (though maybe not with DTS) and it _will_ look bad on screen. Additionally, it won't peel easily.

My preferred splicing tape is the clear Neumade tape. It should be available from your usual equipment supplier. The thinner clear tape usually doesn't peel easily and zebra tape just seems useless to me (and is stupid when used for repair splices, as so many theatres seem to do).
 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-08-2000, 09:20 PM:
 
Well, 6 of our screens are DTS equiped, 2 are Dolby, and the other 4 that are stereo are reserved for when movies have been out long enough to do 2 people a day. I'll start using clear tape for the features though (not for trailers-we have to change those to often and being able to find those splices easy is important).

It must be not that I am only unofficialy in charge of the projection booth. Its gonna take a while to spread the word about clear tape.
 


Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-08-2000, 09:45 PM:
 
Dolby Digital CANNOT miss an entire frame of data without cutting out. Dolby has even told me this themselves.
 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-08-2000, 09:59 PM:
 
Hmm, watched many a movie in our THX and never noticed a cut out.

But anyhow, I don't really need the white tape to find the splices anymore (except in the trailers, like I explained) so I'll start using clear. Since I build nearly every movie that comes here, implementing the policy shouldn't be hard. Now convincing the guys that tear down the merits of the new way...
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-08-2000, 11:13 PM:
 
Zebra Tape:

I use zebra tape in both of my jobs. Lately I've been splicing so the "dotted line" is the part that gets cut off. The part that goes across the splice is the clear part. The yellow bars go along the SDDS track. Since I HATE SDDS I don't care about it! It usually doesn't cause any problems, anyway. If it does, it's just one more reason I can tell mgt. that they should take the damn things and throw them in the dumpster!

Really, on a practical matter, only 6 out of 17 screens are SDDS. If you think about it, that means that the movie is going to play in SDDS for one, maybe two weeks. The rest of the time it's going to be in opt. stereo. A "Rice Crispies" splice is far worse to me than a momentary drop-out.

With the splices made this way you get all the benefits of zebra tape and (almost) none of the problems. (Provided you buy good quality tape.) You can still see the splices just as well during the Breakdown.

There's one guy here who complained to me that he couldn't find the splices like that. I just kind of laughed and walked away. I just didn't have the heart to tell him that Leslie, the W/S student at the college, has only a few months of experience breaking down the prints and she has NEVER had trouble finding splices. I even changed my splicing technique on her without telling her and she never missed a beat. This guy is supposed to be a 4-year "vetran" and he STILL has trouble finding splices?????


Overlapping:

I do that, too. In the last movie at the college, every splice was virtually undetectable. There's only a quick, split-second jump and if you look closely, you can see the edges of the tape. The great majority of people don't have the ability to even see it. Those who do are probably projectionists! If you weren't looking for it you might not even see it.

Yes, the overlap makes the splice stronger but I think that's secondary. Where the real benefit comes is that there's absolutely no gap between the ends of the film. Even if you make a perfect "butted" splice, eventually it'll pull apart and leave a little gap. That'll make a snapping sound when it goes through.

Here's what I think you gotta' do: Take a close look at one of your best butted splices. Notice how the soundtracks line up. There's a minute "blank space" at the jount. (Unless you really do it well.) All you gotta' do is modify your splicer, per Brad's inst. and you'll overlap the ends by a hair's width. Maybe it'll be only a 1/8 of a sprocket hole, maybe a bit less, even. If you've done a good job, you'll notice there's no blank space. Also, after 100 or so runs a "blank space" might develop even on the best butted splice. With that hair's width of overlap, it won't happen!

Moral of the story:

Experiment! Try a few different things out and see how things improve. (Or don't improve) If you want to be a good projectionist you've got to know how things work. If you don't try you don't learn.


 


Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-08-2000, 11:31 PM:
 
The one-perf overlap splices are a carryover from the days of making cement splices using an unheated Griswold splicer. Some projectionists use the overlap to prevent the film from folding up, as it might if the film ends were not properly butted together, or if the tape stretched with use. But the overlap technique results in a very thick and stiff splice, that is much more likely to hang up in the gate or pop a keeper roller open. I don't recommend using overlap splices. If folding splices are a problem, adjust your splicer to eliminate any gap, or change your tape brand to one that has minimum stretch. See Brad's Splicing Tips in the Projection Tips section.

"Zebra Tape" was developed long before digital soundtracks. The concept was good, but the tape has evolved to very wide stripes that are too visible on the screen and cover the soundtracks. I prefer clear tape, especially the 1-1/2 inch wide (8-perf) "frameline" tape, that covers two complete frames, leaving the tape edges on the framelines so they are less visible.

The technique of looking carefully at the film roll edges for subtle differences in the color or gloss of the film edges at reel changes is valid. When illuminated with bright, grazing illumination (a small spotlight or halogen desk lamp), there is usually enough of a difference to distinctly see each different reel as they lay on the platter during breakdown.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-08-2000, 11:42 PM:
 
I don't presume to argue with the master, but aren't projectors supposed to have enough tolerance to take two thicknesses of film. I don't see how the extra thicknesses of the tape would push past that tolerance, especially since polyester film is 15% thinner than acetate. (The two-thickness thing was made up for acetate, right?)
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-08-2000, 11:56 PM:
 
Yes, cement splices WERE overlap splices, so projectors should be able to handle them. But unlike cement splices, you are now adding two thicknesses of tape, and not scraping the emulsion, so the total thickness is greater, even with 4.7 mil polyester support. Why take the risk of the added stiffness and thickness popping a roller or getting hung up in the gate? Adjusting the splicer to eliminate any gap and using high quality tape should produce reliable "butt" splices that run much quieter, and with minimal jump.

BTW, I'm not yet a MASTER Film Handler , so it's Okay to argue with me.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-09-2000, 12:08 AM:
 
I've experimented with both kinds. The Century does have a little harder time with the overlapped ones. The old Simplex (PR-1003?) doesn't seem to know the difference. Sometimes, I think it'd run a 2X4 and not miss a beat!

I would have to agree with, "Err on the side of caution."

As far at "titles" go, I don't even notice anymore. Besides, you don't have that may more posts to go to make the next level, do you?
 


Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-09-2000, 01:02 AM:
 
John-- You'll be a Master Film Handler very very soon. Then you can be just like me! But in a day or so I should be a Jedi Master Film Handler.

Randy-- The zebra tape with the dotted or dashed line is horrible! That tape leaves awful reside when peeled off. Neumade makes a "zebra" tape (I don't think that they call it ZEBRA though) that is exactly like their clear tape, but with yellow bars on it. This tape is good stuff. I don't use the bar to cross the frameline either. The bottom yellow bar is over the sprocket holes (p-side) and the top yellow bar covers the SDDS track, which SDDS seems to be able to handle. We don't have any of this tape in stock so we are just using the Neumade clear tape. The zebra tape with the dotted lines also fades over time, making it so you can't even see it.
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-09-2000, 09:30 AM:
 
Well to be different and probably roasted alive I absolutly hate neumade tape many a loop has been trashed when it lets go
I use the Jack Roe tape from the UK distributed by Marble and CPI
It doesn't fold
Is very clear
strong adesive
and can be peeled off
Until recently one canadian circuit would fire a projectionist for using anything but clear tape
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-09-2000, 11:47 AM:
 
Just one more comment--even though I used clear tape as a matter of course, I did keep a couple of rolls of zebra tape around. For me, the only justification for using the zebra tape was if we received a beat-to-hell print that was extremely splicy around the reel changes. In that sort of situation, the zebra tape is very helpful to distinguish repair splices (should be clear) from reel splices (zebra). With new or like-new prints, though, zebra tape is a waste of money, if nothing else.
 
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 03-09-2000, 03:13 PM:
 
I have four Simplex XL's from the WWII era, and still crankin! They will take your arm off and still keep going. They tear the living crap out of film and eat it for lunch and then call you to tell you how good it was, and never let go. You could run three movies simultaneously and never notice it, in fact I would like to try that someday.

------------------
"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"
 


Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 03-09-2000, 03:15 PM:
 
Oh and back on the subject of only projectionists would notice... Well you might be right, but in that case I think that future projectionists notice too. I was noticing all of the minor nuances back when i was only three years old. Perhaps thats how you know a projectionist when you see one, kind of like sensing a jedi at that age, when they start blowing up large battleships in space and stuff.

------------------
"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-09-2000, 06:29 PM:
 
Ok, about this peeling business. My manager said he used to do that, but he hasn't encouraged any of us to do it. How important is it? Up until now I wouldn't have even considered it since the white tape won't peel worth a crap. But even now that I'm gonna start using clear is saving that one fram on the head and the one on the tail really that crucial? I mean, at most a print is going to get used three time right? Is losing two frames by the time when it gets to the third run really a disaster? Or is peeling off your tape to save a frame just going to far?
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-09-2000, 07:43 PM:
 
Dustin:

Ideally, you should peel off the splices when you reattach the leaders, so there's no loss of continuity. But you are right, reality says that most prints see no more than a handful of theatres in their lifetime, so if each theatre cuts off a frame, you'll loose only a few tenths of a second of continuity even for the sub-, sub-, sub-run. If the act of peeling the splices damages the ends of the film or gets them dirty, as compared to making a simple cut on the splicer, I'd vote for loosing one frame. If you can find a tape that peels cleanly, but still produces reliable splices, peel the splice.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-10-2000, 05:43 AM:
 
Keep the splicing tape clear. You're trying to keep the presentation clear on screen. The patrons don't want to see your splicing tape. Splices are easy to find without that sort of garbage.

I like splices to be made end to end, not overlapped at all. If they're done properly, the splice won't move on screen as it goes through the gate and if, as it seems it is now going to happen more often, there are no cues on the prints, you won't notice a thing on screen. All my houses are digital so even if there is a slight (there isn't) gap, it don't matter to me.

Joe, contributed much to this forum you have. Learned some also, mmmm? But Jedi not yet are you.


 


Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-10-2000, 06:08 AM:
 
On Christie projectors the splice will bounce onscreen pretty much no matter what you do. The only way I can prevent this is to cut BEFORE the greenband on trailers, so the bounce happens during the "black" and therefore undetectable.

But you're screwed during reel changes if you use tape splices on a Christie.
 


Posted by David Koegel (Member # 25) on 03-10-2000, 07:28 AM:
 
Joe: Then I should assume that you use an ultrasonic splicer? If not, what?? If so, how well do they pass through?

Or are you just saying that all reel changes on Christie's are bouncy no matter what?
 


Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 03-10-2000, 08:07 AM:
 
I use 'John Page' Splicing tape from England, peels of in one piece every-time. BTW any advise on peeling of splicing tape? the way i do it now is to lay the film down on a plain surface (base-down, emulision up) then i peel of the emulision side first keeping it pressed to the surface (with out moving the film, or else it may scracth the film) after that it's easy to breakdown the emulision side splice while holding the film up in the air in my hands. Anywon now of a better way?
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-10-2000, 04:11 PM:
 
David-

I don't use an ultrasonic splicer right now. I just have to put up with the crappy jump at the reel changes.
 


Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 03-10-2000, 07:13 PM:
 
>>"Ok, about this peeling business. My manager said he used to do that, but he hasn't encouraged any of us to do it. How important is it? Up until now I wouldn't have even considered it since the white tape won't peel worth a crap. But even now that I'm gonna start using clear is saving that one fram on the head and the one on the tail really that crucial? I mean, at most a print is going to get used three time right? Is losing two frames by the time when it gets to the third run really a disaster? Or is peeling off your tape to save a frame just going to far?"<<


In my ever-so-humble opinion, it is crucial to save a frame, every time. It's a nasty habit to cut yet another frame because the projectionist won't take the time to peel off the tape. (It's an equally nasty habit to just cut right through the splice, btw, without removing the tape.)

This has got a lot to do with taking pride in what I do. I like to be able to say, "no, I didn't contribute to anything that would help destroy a print today", that's important to me, just as it is important to me to check the focus regularly, maintain Dolby levels at the theatre, and time the curtains so that the show will be a real show instead of just the outlet of some kind of film factory.

As for using the white tape; we don't have it, and I'm glad we don't. Every time I get a print that contains splices made with that crap I get mad because it takes forever to save that frame (yes; I remove it and replace it with clear tape). It won't peel off at all, so the process is tedious and involves chemicals...

Whatever tape is used, it should meet the following criteria:

- It should peel off easily.
- It should be strong enough not to break.
- It should be invisible to the patrons.

Not that I want to criticise others, but this tape splice thing is a pet peeve of mine.
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-10-2000, 07:56 PM:
 
>>This has got a lot to do with taking pride in what I do. I like to be able to say, "no, I didn't contribute to anything that would help destroy a print today", that's important to me, just as it is important to me to check the focus regularly, maintain Dolby levels at the theatre, and time the curtains so that the show will be a real show instead of just the outlet of some kind of film factory.<<

I don't consider osing one frame off each end of a reel "contributing to its destruction." Considering that most prints end of being incinerated in the end, I don't think it really matters. I did try peeling tape today when I tore down Hurricane. The white of course wouldn't come off worth a damn, and the clear stuff we use (the film was half and half for some reason) doesn't peel all that well either.

About white tape: I really don't uderstand how it is such a big annoyance. It only causes a momentary (1/24 of a second to be exact) flash on the screen. Considering most (almost all) reel changes coincide with scene changes in the film, most people don't even notice. I was an avid movie goer before I worked at the this theater, and I must say I never did.

If it really matters to you guys that much, more power to you. I have way too many other things to do to lose sleep over white tape .
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-10-2000, 08:58 PM:
 
It is funny but experience has taught me that operators that don't care about the quality of there splices and how that effects their presentation are probably to busy to ever clean a projector let alone the lens
to busy to ever check the a chain levels
and in many cases to busy to check if they have even threaded correctly and scratched a print.
They also are probably boasting about haveing threading contests as to who can laceup the fastest.
Also since you seem to feel that films are incinerated at the end of the run well that is only partially true
Usually one or two prints are kept for revival and rep houses and they don't have time to check them so it may just be the one you didn't think was worth looking after and some one else will get stuck with your mess
 
Posted by Patrick S. Chaffins (Member # 348) on 03-10-2000, 09:03 PM:
 
Thank you Gordon
Your Reply was better than anything that I could've said
Pat
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-10-2000, 11:06 PM:
 
Joe...I have used 1 inch wide opaque splicing tape on SRD before and had NO dropouts of any kind. Now that I'm local to you, swing by and I'll demonstrate the awesomeness of a real SRD penthouse!

John Walsh...I think has come up with a nice little extra Christie should make. A clamp on light!

John Pytlak...what's it going to take to get the fine folks at Neumade to modify their fabulous 35SS splicer to handle frameline tape? Any ideas??? I agree wholeheartedly that 8 perf clear tape should be the standard in the industry!

Also, on breakdown, if the tape will not peel off, instead of losing the frame, PLEASE simply "tear" the splice and tape over the frame with the "unpeelable" tape. That way the next guy who gets that print can build it up with a modified splicer or perhaps even an ultrasonic. There's nothing more annoying than to me than to get a print that has been used only one time and there is an id frame, with a missing frame (where the last guy cut that frame out), spliced to a poorly cut third frame...meaning I must lose 4 FRAMES on EACH side of the splice. At least with taping "over" the original splice, there will be no residue and a new cut can be made. Heck, that next operator might even go to work on that frame and get that old tape off!

Joe...a Christie projector won't jump with an ultrasonic, but it is a physical certainty that any tape splice will. That's why I just go ahead and leave the pre-cue on the trailer's leaders, as I feel it's less annoying than a jump at the start of the green band. (No I'm not crazy enough to sonic splice trailers. Egad on changeouts!)

Gordon...after doing many rep shows, I wish the depots would let me voluntarily go down once a month and tell them which prints to save. I'd do it for free if they would just let me! There's nothing worse than getting a beat up repertory print.


 


Posted by Erika Hellgren (Member # 22) on 03-10-2000, 11:27 PM:
 
I also agree with Gordon. I personally feel that if I am too busy to do the very best job I can, then it's not the job for me. I have a real hard time with doing things halfway. It's all or nothing in my book.
 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2000, 12:39 AM:
 
Ok, time for sorta pissed off rant:

1) Our tape won't peel, period. The few times I did try it just left residue. I am not in charge of purchasing. I'll send a memo to our district, or rather get my manager too since I can't. I'll get back to you with the response when I get it next year.

2) At our theater the jobs of usher and projectionist are combined. Sunday nights through Friday afternoon's there is one usher/projectionist to run 12 screens. Friday nights through Sunday Afternoons there are 2. Oh, and since we're always shortstaffed in concessions, we've got to help out there too.

3) I am unofficialy in charge of our both. I have as my job responsibilities taking care of all the slide projectors. Their maintenance adn slide change outs. Projector maintenance. Tearing down/building 90% of the movies that come here. Adding/removing screenvisions ads, etc. Keeping trailer programs up to date with our current bookings (which is a hard job here, I'll go into more detail on this if you wish). Winding up trailers. Oh, and loading/starting movies, cleaning theaters, acting as doorman, helping in concession, helping in box, etc.

So you can just take your elitist attitude and shove it. I would love to be up in the booth all day and only have to worry about film. I would then have time to make sure every splice was perfect-clear and pealable. But with all of the above going on I can't justify worrying about clear or white tape when the latter causes a barely noticable flash and ABSOLUTELY no sound problems at our theater.

Oh, and on top of all that, I've been working at mininum wage for 2 1/2 years. Pride in ones work only carries so far.
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2000, 12:52 AM:
 
To continue the rant:

And on top of all that, there are the things that are much bigger than splicing tape that are wrong here and haven't been fixed yet. Here is a short list for ya, I probably forgot some stuff:

-Broken apature gate on one of our old Centuries. Make loading a royal pain in the arse.
-Broken framing knob on another Century. MTS has told us the only thing to do is get a new projector head-which will never be approved in my lifetime. The movie is noticably out of frame on that screen, but there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.
-Wrong apature plates with wrong screens. Some f*cking genius didn't realize each plate was cute for a specific theater. So now they're all mixed up.
-Broken dousers on two of our Christies. They're being held up with masking tape.
-Malfunctioning stereo sound head on a Christie. We gotta load it loose and put a rubber band on it, and it still doesn't sound good.
-Dots appearing on film in one of our THX screens. See my other thread.

So you can see why splicing tape would be low on my list of priorities.

Oh, and what I menat by incineration is that at the end of a films run, after its been to the second, third, fourth, billionith run theaters, the film companies incenerate most of the prints.

In the end this is a stupid argument. I've had audiences sit 30 minutes through a movie that was out of frame (mis-frame, not out of frame from the start, not my doing either) without a complaint. It is highly doubtfull that they're going to notice 1/24 of a second of film missing.

[/rant]
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2000, 01:39 AM:
 
Got so mad I forgot to address your original points, here goes:

It is funny but experience has taught me that operators that don't care about the quality of there splices and how that effects their presentation

You made some rather unfair judgments here. I do care about the quality of my splices. Our splicer gets cleaned regularily. I also follow brads guidelines for splicing, smoothing over the tape so that there are no air bubbles. As to how that effects our presentation, I seriously doubt anyone notices one frame of white splicing tape on a 20 minuter reel. That is 28,800 frames. One flash on a scene change is going to ruin your whole show? The point is mute anyhow, I'm using clear tape for reel splices now.

are probably to busy to ever clean a projector

Our projectors are thouroghly cleaned every day and wiped down between shows.

let alone the lens

Lenses/portholes get cleaned once a week. I would like to do them twice a week, but my eyesight is not perfect, or even close, and cannot be corrected. Hence it is difficult for me to focus. Taking out lenses everyday to clean them would be counterproductive, since the small amount of dirt on the lens would be less of a detraction from the show than the movie being out of focus.

to busy to ever check the a chain levels

I don't know what you mean by chain levels. Please explain, perhpas its something I was never shown before.

and in many cases to busy to check if they have even threaded correctly and scratched a print.

I always check to see if I threaded correctly and have never scratched a print to to misloading, never.

They also are probably boasting about haveing threading contests as to who can laceup the fastest.

I can thread quickly, yes, but I do not boast about it. I did take part in a threading contest once, but went back and carefully checked the work afterwords.

Also since you seem to feel that films are incinerated at the end of the run well that is only partially true. Usually one or two prints are kept for revival and rep houses and they don't have time to check them so it may just be the one you didn't think was worth looking after and some one else will get stuck with your mess.

How is losing one frame a mess? Oh, that's right, since I don't peel tape I'm a shitty projectionist, dragging my film across the ground, misloading projectors, splicing in porn frames in family movie, etc. Get off your high horse. I've never been so insulted in my entire life as I was by that post.

 


Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-11-2000, 03:16 AM:
 
I'm not trying to push anyone over the edge here, but technically an opaque splice is onscreen for 1/12th of a second, not 1/24th. It is onscreen on the bottom of the picture for 1/24th of a second, and then it is on top of the screen for another 1/24th of a second. This happens because the splice covers one half of one frame and one half of the next.
 
Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 03-11-2000, 04:30 AM:
 
Dustin, leave the lens in the turnet while cleaning the glas, no need to take it out. BTW check out the thread *Cleaning of lens's*
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-11-2000, 09:15 AM:
 
Dustin, I don't think Gordon was insulting anyone, just commenting on how (sadly,) many people operate. The mere fact you are here, posting (not lurking) and reading means you have a serious interest, and are not a hacker.

The main problem with this industry is that costs and the candy stand dictate everything. It's no wonder that no one, especially younger people, leave this job. Endless work, cheaply run theaters, low pay for high annoyance are killing the job.

Since this forum is for people who like to get down to the nitty-gritty of projection, eventually there will be a big discusion of a minor point like splices. But no one is saying that "one way is the only way", or that if someone doesn't do it THIS way, they are wrong. You take whatever advice you can use and leave the rest.

When I was first learning projection (25 years ago) the guy who taught me made a big deal out of how you should do _everything_ you can to keep the print in good shape. This was a point from which everything else in projection "hinged" around. It was almost as if your job was to protect film first, project it second. So if people say things like that, it usually just shows the way they taught, and maybe even the era they were taught. This is the way the industry was years ago; you did everything you could so that the next guy didn't have any surprises. Of course, some people still try to do that today, but there are far fewer because the old timers have died, and the younger guys have been forced to other jobs to earn a living.

Now, it's totally different. It's a lousy job, with no pride (most "owners" are corprations, who's president never visits, so how can there be any?)

Dustin, if you like, why don't you e-mail me your address, and I will send you a roll of the Nuemade tape. Try it for awhile. Maybe if you have a roll to show management, they will relent and buy some.

 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2000, 12:27 PM:
 
On our Chritie's the lens does not need to be removed, correct. On our old Century's, it does.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-11-2000, 01:53 PM:
 
A few quick points - don't clean lenses every day. Each time you clean the lenses, you scratch the surface and wear away the coating (assuming that your lenses aren't so old as to be uncoated). Once a week or even slightly less often is fine, provided that you are careful not to get gunk like projector oil and dirt near the lenses during daily operation. Porthole glass is another story; this is probably worth cleaning a few times a week; it's not usually coated and it's usually far less expensive than quality lenses.

Second, "A-chain" alignment is critical for good sound quality, and is much more important for a Dolby system than a mono system. An important part of a-chain alignment is matching the levels for the left and right channels; if this isn't done correctly, the Dolby matrix won't work properly and you will hear weird things like dialogue in the surround channel and other such nastiness. Anyway, the full procedure for soundhead alignment is explained in the manuals for Dolby processors. If you don't have a manual at your theatre, you can download one from this site and print it out. Proper soundhead alignment requires a buzz-track test film (expensive), an oscilloscope (expensive, but can be borrowed), a Dolby-tone loop, and a pink-noise loop. Since you probably don't have the buzz-track loop or an oscilloscope, you can only do the "regular maintenance" part of things, which assumes that your soundheads were aligned properly at one time and that the alignment wasn't disturbed since then.

Basically, to set Dolby levels, you take the Dolby-tone loop and run it through the projector. Depending on what Dolby processor you're using, you should have some kind of meter to display the signal strength of the left and right channels. There's a mechanism (ranging from a "push to align" button to manual level adjustments) to set the L and R levels to equal, standardized levels. It's really pretty simple and takes about ten minutes to set up two projectors. Be sure to clean the projectors afterwards, since test loops often attract dirt and drag it into the machine.

As for peeling splicing tape as opposed to losing a frame--yes, I agree that a single lost frame is no big deal, but think about what would happen if every theatre that got a particular print cut out frames. For a print that circulates among, say, twelve theatres, you'd be losing one second of film at each reel change (12 frames at each head and tail), which could cut off an important line of dialogue. Many repertory prints circulate among many, many theatres, so you can see the problem here. Also, imagine losing a frame on your company's policy trailer or Dolby trailer or something like that every time you re-attached it to a different print!

I agree that the white tape is terrible about being "peel-able." That's one major reason why I don't like it.
 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2000, 02:13 PM:
 
About aligning sound heads, MTS just went through all our projectors a month or two ago and did that. I'll look into making sure the Dolby processors are properly configured.

I had no idea a print could be circulated 12 times. I suppose if I was dealing with used prints that I knew would be going on to several over people after me I would make a very strng effort to peel the tape. But there would be some important differences here that would allow me to do this:

1) I'd probably be running only one screen, allowing me to focus my attention on one film/projector.
2) I'd be determining my own purchases, lettng me buy the peelable tape.

But think of it like this, back on February 18 we started 4 new movies and finaled 6. Two people did all the print tearing down/building up on Thursday night/Friday morning. Are you starting to see what I mean by "not enough time"?
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-11-2000, 03:27 PM:
 
It was not ment to be insulting but in almost 25 years in this business it has been proven all to true
When I started we had to apprentice for one year 5 nights a week and every second weekend double shift in assigned theatres with no pay
After you got your licence the union put you in dumps until your proved yourself to work in the circuit and the big downtown houses
The first theatre I ran was a eastindian theatre that had Wenzel Aces and Ballantyne #6 optical soundheads and Ballantyne Mag with the imfamous ballantyne solid state preamp changeovers. We had 5 PD50 serries amps on the back wall We used Peerless Magnarcs Hilux Lens 20min reels and the MG set sat in the booth behind the #3 machine
There was a brenkert Steropticon for intemissions in the 3+ hour films
So for minimum wage ($50.00 total per weekend (frid6:30-3:30 sat noon-3:30am and Sun noon-9pm)
And we were penalized for throughing out carbon buts also no electric rewind and all the films were about 18+ 1000 spools on cores
After 2 years the union upgraded me to a chineese porno theatre that ran 7days a week with Century's (CC with R2 optical and Westrex mag) and a Kintek KT30 and the princely sum of $5.00 per hour
Still on carbons
After another two years I was allowed to work relief in the circuits.
Lucily I had my own company to pay the bills doing service
It was expected that you carryied your own tools to the booth and if you wanted to tape splice you owned your own
A lot of others in this forum have experienced much the same and are not unsympathetic but I do have a problem with the comment about minimum wage though
If you accept payment to preform the job it means you must do the best of your ability to do it not dependent on the wage you recieve .
This industry has degenerated into a bottom line thype operation but that doesn't mean everyone must lower themselves to the level of the worst
Part of the advantage of this forum is that there is an exchange of information so that every one skills improve
In my shop and in the booth I have a sign on the door "check attitudes and preconcived methods at the door"
Keep trying and the satisfaction from the job is proportional to the effort put in

 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2000, 03:40 PM:
 
Well, obviously I care about my work. The fact I'm on these forums and the fact that I have worked for mininum wage for 2 1/2 years (and I will never get a raise unless the mininum wage goes up, that much has been said) proves that.

To make my posistion clear:

1) I use clear, not whit, tape now.
2) Even though I do not think it is a big deal, I would peel if I was able. Our splicing tape won't peel, so I can't.

What set me off was the way you insulted me in your post. I try to do the best damn job I can. You know what my training consisted of? They showed me how to load a projector. They showed me how to build movies ("um, heads first. Save a cheat frame on the heads and tails, use this tape, don't go to fast") how to tear down ("look for the splice, tape the heads/tails on with clear tape, one side. Don't go to fast"). That's it. Everything else I've learned has been self taught. Having you walk all over me for not peeling tape just got my goat.
 


Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 03-11-2000, 05:47 PM:
 
If you are looking for splicing tape that identifies the join and is invisible to both the patrons *AND* the digital soundtracks, there is a product called 'SPLICEMARK" which is a clear tape with magenta-colored stripes that when applied mark the film's EDGES only in bright magenta. Its not too difficult to see if you are careful with breaking down, and it is virtually invisible to most LED-based readers and I have not had any problems with it on white-light Dolby cat700 readers either. Its made in the UK, and peels like Neutape without sticky residues unlike some of those less expensive tapes. I think that CPI is the exclusive distributor, although there was a dealer at ShoWest that had a copycat tape for sale, althought I would bet its based on the gooey-cheap adhesive... The only disadvantage to Splicemark is the waste of tape because to discourage making splices with a big magenta line thru the center of the image the words 'SPLICEMARK-MADE IN UK' are printed across the entire width of the non-frame area of the film (between the clear parts that you should be using) and I feel that is a bit wasteful, but I can understand the idea of keeping the color on the edges and not the picture. Give it a try, I wont use opaque or zebra tape again if I have this and clear on hand.

Aaron

 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-11-2000, 06:07 PM:
 
It is made by JackRoe in the UK and is available under many different house lables
Marble was the first importer
 
Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 03-11-2000, 10:37 PM:
 
After reading this thread I would have too argree with both Erica and Gordon on this subject.

Stephen Jones.

------------------

 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-11-2000, 11:01 PM:
 
Might I recommend this time saver:

Before you build up your prints on Thursday night, take a piece of masking tape about 2-3 inches long and place it on the non-soundtrack side of your reel. On this tape, take a marker and place a line where the film roll ends and make a notation of the reel number also on this tape. This way, when breaking the print down, you will see virtually exactly where to start slowing down. Just make sure to use a piece of tape to do this and don't mark on the reel as if this practice ever becomes widespread, differentiating between other people's marks will be damn near impossible.

Also, don't worry about peeling the tape, just tear it between your fingers and single side splice the leaders back on. "If" the next theater cares about that frame, they can peel the tape off. If that next theater doesn't care, they'll cut one frame (or more) over anyway. The bottom line is it won't slow you down a bit if you simply tear the splices. (However, with Neumade tape it really takes no extra time to peel the tape.)

NOTE: Do NOT and I repeat do NOT "cut" the splice apart with a pair of scissors or using the splicer cutter blade. Always tear the splice or those two frames will never line up again should the next operator want to save them.

Hope something there helps.
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2000, 11:22 PM:
 
The tape on the reel is a good idea, will implement it on my next build (Final Destination).

I always tear the splices. I will not cut off the old frames now that you mention it. It is a good compromise.

BTW, the clear splicing tape we use is called "Frameline."
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-11-2000, 11:36 PM:
 
Aha! That "Frameline" tape is crap. Trying to peel that tape is basically an impossibility. Personally, I'd rather use Scotch tape from an office supply store.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-12-2000, 01:59 AM:
 
>>"Well, obviously I care about my work. The fact I'm on these forums and the fact that I have worked for mininum wage for 2 1/2 years (and I will never get a raise unless the mininum wage goes up, that much has been said) proves that."<<

Just how close is the nearest theatre to the one you are currently working? If you are being paid a wage below what you feel you are worth, QUIT!!!

By definition, you would be making no less than you are now no matter where you went to and perhaps they would be better at supplies and having the equipment repaired (presuming you were still an operator). Why stay in what appears to be a crappy job (over worked, under paid with poor working conditions) for minimum wage? Around here, you can't get high school kids to work for minimum wage because there is always some store (not necessarily a theatre) that needs employees so much they pay more.

In short, don't use your circumstance to justify your treatment of a print (be it cutting a frame, or splicing with opaque tape); work somewhere where your talents will be appreciated and your skill can improve.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-12-2000, 02:07 AM:
 
The other theater in the area is even worse than us (see "What Theater is a Dump?"). Besides, I do like my job and the people I work with. I will be getting promoted to assistant manager soon (just found out today) with a wage of $6.50. Hopefully I will still be in charge of the projection booth.

As I said before, and will say again, I would peel the tape if I could. I will see about buying better tape, but if it is more expensive it won't get approved (we once bought $70 in bow ties, $5 a piece makes that 15, and the District office had a shit fit becuase we didn't get approval for it).
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-12-2000, 11:41 AM:
 
Both Marble and CPI sell there tape direct
also Entertainment Equipment Corp sells the same brand 1 800 448 1656

 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-13-2000, 12:37 AM:
 
Dustin,

When you say your framing is busted on the Century, what exactly do you mean? Where is it busted? There may be a way to get you back in frame in that theatre, you just won't be able to use it if you thread out of frame.
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-13-2000, 12:59 AM:
 
I don't a lot about the inards of the projector so I can't really say. The tech from MTS showed me one day briefly but I only understood partially. The framing knob just spins without effect. I believe the shaft is stripped or something like that. Problem is its behind a bunch of other crap meaning you'd literaly have to rip the whole projector head apart. He has told us it would be easier and cheaper to buy a new projector head than to fix it. Problem is Carmike is pretty tight with its cash right now. I doubt it will get fixed in the next year.

When I say noticably out of frame I do not mean you can see frame lines. I'd say it is out of frame by 1/4 to 1/2 of a perf. Bad enough for me to notice, but thankfully we haven't gotten any complaints about it.
 


Posted by Scott Hicks (Member # 376) on 03-13-2000, 10:12 PM:
 
Dustin,

It most CERTAINLY would NOT be cheaper to "buy a new projector" vs. repairing the frame shaft. It's even doubtful, that it would be easier to put on a new head, vs. fixing the problem. The problem is likely a stripped pin on the frame gear or perhaps a loose bracket. In either case, you're probably talking about $2-10 in parts. I'll bet there are at least a half-dozen guys in the Chicago area that could fix it in less than an hour.

On the peeling tape issue, you'll find that Neumade tape will peel right off with no sticky residue. It's a bit more expensive than others at $2.60 per roll, but if you feel the need to peel....
 


Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-13-2000, 10:58 PM:
 
About the framing knob, I really don't understand the problem or the mechanism myself. All I know is that the tech from MTS, who is pretty good at what he does, tried explaining to me one day why he can't fix it. For some reason though this guy has no concept of time, and when he tried explaining it I was on my way to start 5 movies all at the same time. Of course I did not pick up most of what he said. Just that we need a new projector head.

About the spicing tape, I will try to get my manager to either buy the good stuff or tell the district office to buy the good stuff, however it works. In the end though it is out of my hands.
 


Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-14-2000, 01:07 AM:
 
quote:
There was a brenkert Steropticon for intemissions in the 3+ hour films

I've seen those advertised going back to the silent days.

Were they called steropticons because they projected 3-D slides? Or what?

 


Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 03-14-2000, 12:28 PM:
 
Re this splicing business:

Most of the prints I run are archive prints more than thirty years old. A few of them have lost so many frames that the original c/o marks aren't there anymore. They were lost with those frames.

I'm not allowed to make cuts in the archive prints because they are the last of their kind; if they go, the audience won't get a rerun of that film again unless someone digs up a new reel or reels. It follows that I have to run every show with five or six c/'s, double that number with the russian prints. Every reel start or end that was massacred earlier in its life becomes painfully obvious to me, and to the patrons. I guess the projectionists that handled these prints thirty years ago didn't think that the prints would be archived one day.

The job is not well paid, far from it, but I have accepted doing it anyway since I can't stand the thought of not doing it. I love the job, even though I curse these old prints every now and then. (I always long for the few preview shows we get, those beautiful prints with all the bells and whistles: Dolby Digital, Scope, flawless colours, you name it. I even get to splice them. )

But yes; every now and then, I work as an extra at the local multiplex and see what happens to these marvellous new prints when the management cares more about the the dress code than the correct handling of prints or the projection equipment. It's sad, and I know how hard it can be to set up a decent booth in those conditions.

I sympathise with you, Dustin, but I can't help but react, because eventually, some of the prints being mistreated end up in my hands, figuratively speaking.
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-14-2000, 08:14 PM:
 
Zebra Tape: Yeah, I agree that the kind with the dotted line is crap. I just mentioned that because it was the easiest way to say it that everybody would know. We have both kinds at TT-17. It depends on what they send us. We specify NEUMADE tape but they just keep sending us any old thing.

Cleaning Lenses: Turrets make life a whole lot easier in this respect! However, on my old Simplex, if one is careful enough to always seat the lens collar back into the projector so the alignment pin is all the way back into it's groove you won't have that problem. (As much) In fact, I can do a FLAT-to-SCOPE lens change in about 20 seconds and still have the lens 98% in focus. It's becasue I made sure that both lenses were in their collars the exact same way. (accounting for the difference in focal len.) The pin on the collar goes all the way back in to the alignment slot, snug. Then I make sure the lens is turned all the way clockwise (looking back toward the proj.) so the pin is against the side of the groove. -- Frankly, I'm one of those guys who doesn't believe in cleaning lenses until they need it... "Need it" = a little dust OK....any fingerprints, haze or schmutz BAD. Where I work, there are bone heads who would destroy the lenses if we had them cleaned every week. I prefer to do it myself on an as-needed basis!

Peeling Splices: At Mercyhurst we always peel splices! If I see 50 splices in a row at the head or tail of a print I clip 'em out. They won't go through a projector anyway! If you get one of our prints you will find ONE single-sided splice with all previous tape peeled off.
At Tinseltown, it's pretty much "anything goes"... I always peel. Another guy peels about 1/2 the time. Another guy uses masking tape. Other people do a god job if there is somebody watching. (Usually, I'm the one watching, even though I'm not PAID for it!)
 






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