This is topic I.A.T.S.E. Locals in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 03-14-2000, 08:05 PM:
Here is the short, short version. I work with a union projectionist. She said that if I join that she can "probably get me" so much. I already make that much an hour unbeknownest to her. I would essentially be making much less an hour when you consider dues. I asked to go to a meeting. She said not unless I join. I wanted to go to meet some projectionists in my area and maybe get to learn some hands on from them.If anyone has any thoughts, experiences, feelings that they could share with me that could help me make a decision on this I would appreciate it.
Joshua Waaland
[This message has been edited by Joshua Waaland (edited 03-15-2000).]
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-14-2000, 09:58 PM:
Generally, one must be a member to attend a union meeting. However, I have found many members will mill around and shoot the bull while waiting for the meeting to start. It is also possible to have a motion raised at the meeting to allow non-members to attend the meeting (without voice or vote) but the sucess of that motion will generally depend on the make-up of the local and what is on the agenda for the meeting.There is normally an apprenticeship phase before you can become a member as well (except in a bonifide organization drive) so it is best to find out about the local, as with any group, before you go further. You might find you like it or not.
As a member of two IA locals (and a former board member of local #224) I hope you find your local to be one that you would want to join.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-14-2000, 10:11 PM:
I think you sort of answered your own question;She won't give any kind of firm dollar amount (that you would be earning after joining 
She dosen't know what you are making, but thinks it's less, so she not in tune with things;
Wants your money, but won't let you go to a meeting as a guest.
I feel most unions want good, interested people, and would allow guests from time to time to attend a meeting.
So I think I'd might still consiter joining, but I'd stay away from her. Can you find someone else to talk with?
Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 03-14-2000, 10:41 PM:
The thing I can't understand is why they wouldn't let you observe the meeting in the first place. Face it, your an operator, they're operators. Its not like your going to be there to bust 'em up. Be friendly, but firm in trying to get into the meeting.
Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 03-15-2000, 03:53 PM:
Yes there is another woman that works there part-time that is in the same local. Only thing is she hasn't worked there since December.
Also the woman I talk to is really nice, and I don't think she is trying to swindle me or anything, but she is the treasurer and is pretty involved with it. They are a very small local and I think she is really trying to get me to join so that they can have a bigger local. I guess they really took a hit from that shut out (I can't remember which chain it was) that got rid of all the union. General or somebody.
I just am not sure if it is worth joining just to get to know other operators. I will see if I can attend a meeting though. She gave me the name of their business agent, I will ask him.
Posted by Andrew D'Vrey (Member # 285) on 03-15-2000, 10:43 PM:
IATSE has a web site: www.iatse.lm.com I have been more than pleased with my Local. But I really don't mind one way or another if others join or not. I think it is a personal decision.
As far as "already [making] that much per hour", it may be the same as in my theater. The Union contract states that employees hired by the theater as projectionists must be paid the contract rate. However, if they work over 30hrs/wk., they must join the Union within, I beleive, sixty days. I haven't read the contract in a while. However, this does not apply to Management in the projection booth. But Union workers are guarenteed a set number of hours per week. If you are part-time, this may be the case.
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"And the monkey flips the switch."
- Major Don West, "Lost In Space"
Andrew D'Vrey
IATSE Local 219
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-16-2000, 10:07 AM:
In my experience, I've never known any outsiders to ever be allowed into a meeting, regardless if they're projectionists, or a man on the street; it's in the Constitution and By-Laws. That's what the sergeant-at-arms is for. The meetings are to conduct union business, it's not a club. But you're not missing anything anyway. Unfortunately, the union is on its way out, even in the bigger cities. I see it all over, it's not a pretty sight. For the most part, and I think others on this forum will concur, the places that still have union operators (like General Cinema) are working without contracts and are still at the wage scale they were when the last contract expired (many often years previous). The men and women left in these jobs have been cut back to part-time hours on top of that, by the hiring of scab labor, and can no longer make a liveable wage.
If you are planning on being a projectionist for any length of time, you will likely not need to join the union because they are already operating in shared booths (such as yours). If you are going into service work for one of the big service companies, you will need an IA card to work for them, plus, you can't get into some booths without one.
In some degree, the motion picture union has been busted by their own concessions over the years, but mainly it's been at the hands of the theatre circuits and a government bent on anti-union legislation. Working for chump change and in excessive conditions/hours now? Don't be surprised to find it going back in the direction of Ford's workshop boys in the 30s! Sweatshops! I know it sounds foolish, but who would've thought 20 years ago that a lackidasical, runny-nosed, button-pushing kid could be in charge of an 18 screen booth? (No offense to the bright, caring young people here on the Film-Tech forum of course, but you know the type I'm referring to.)
An entire industry has been de-professionalized.
[This message has been edited by Tim Reed (edited 03-16-2000).]
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-16-2000, 10:41 AM:
It is interesting to not that the other night on CNN there was a mention of a growing ecconomic concern of the loss of competent worker in North America and it was brought up that it was due mainly to the breaking up of trade apprentiship programs
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-16-2000, 12:25 PM:
If you are going to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, scientist, teacher, etc., you go to college for 4, 6 or even 8 years. Before you become a true professional, you serve an internship or residency, or work for years alongside other professionals in your field, learning from them. In many cases, a rigorous examination (medical boards, bar exam, PE certification, teachers certification)and work experience are needed to achieve full professional status.Skilled trades often require several years of trade school or correspondence school, and then several years of apprenticeship working alongside masters of the trade to apply what you have learned and become skilled.
I sadly agree with Tim that "an entire industry has been de-professionalized" when it comes to projection. The SMPTE, BKSTS, Kodak, and too few theatre circuits provide some training material and support, but there is no true "school of projection". People are often expected to develop skills on their own, after minimal "hands-on" instruction.
Fortunately, I see many in the Film-Tech Forum who are willing to share their skills with others who hope to become skilled projectionists. A lucky few work alongside these skilled mentors. Others at least have a chance to learn when a skilled service technician pays an infrequent visit to their theatre. But for many, it's "the blind leading the blind" and having to learn by trial and error.
Some suggestions:
Learn what you can in school: math, science, electronics, optics, etc. There are some associate degree programs in AV and film.
Study on your own. Libraries can get you books on projection (although many are outdated, they do cover the basics). Film-Tech has many on-line resources and links to companies (like Kodak 
) that have published information.
Take advantage of formal training programs offered by Dolby, Kodak, BKSTS, hopefully your theatre circuit, etc. Some (e.g., Dolby) may require some pre-requisite skills or experience however.
Find skilled mentors and learn from them. It might be the chief projectionist at your theatre, or the service technician, a well-run union training program, or someone at another theatre. Many of them participate in Film-Tech Forum.
Use every opportunity to learn and apply your skills, and then share them with others.
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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Professional Motion Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-17-2000, 12:17 AM:
quote:
It is interesting to not that the other night on CNN there was a mention of a growing ecconomic concern of the loss of competent worker in North America and it was brought up that it was due mainly to the breaking up of trade apprentiship programs
The employers like to moan about the conditions they create. Broadcast chains have been whining that it's so hard to find broadcast engineers these days, but the fact is anyone with those skills doesn't want to work for the minuscule wages & killer workloads being offered by the broadcast monopolies when there are jobs using their skills that pay living &/or good wages instead.
Posted by Rick Green (Member # 313) on 03-19-2000, 07:28 PM:
I've been a member of IATSE Local 252 for 23 years. After UA & Syufy locked us out of our jobs in 1982, I saw the writing on the wall and went back to school to learn video production. I spent 13 years working for a local production company, and in 1998 I got on with the State as a TV producer. All the while I've kept up my union membership and keep my hand in as an operator on the weekend. I was interviewed yesterday by a local newspaper as to my opinion of projection as a career. I said that due to short-sighted decisions made by the major theater chains in our industry, careers in projection don't exist any more. I grew up in this business. (started behind the candy counter at age 13) I love the job and the IATSE as well, but in my opinion our craft has all but been destroyed by massive corporate greed. I too, applaud the many folks here at Film-Tech for trying to keep the spirit of quality presentations alive.Sorry about the length, this subject is near and dear to my heart!
Posted by Charles Lubner (Member # 157) on 03-20-2000, 01:45 AM:
I have a few questions about unions. What ar the pros and cons of being a union projectionist? How does one join a union, and if you do join, how do you find work? I can see the point of the theatre chains...why pay someone $$$ to do a job a teenager can do for minimum wage. As an assistant manager and a projectionist I can see two sides of this argument. I guess i'm just baffled that union operators are still around in today's age of automation.
Posted by Michael Goucher (Member # 199) on 03-20-2000, 10:10 AM:
The first reason to join the union, Charles, is to achieve economic solidarity and collective bargaining power. The second reason is to share knowledge and skills with your brothers and sisters, and to benefit economically from that knowledge. The notion of the manager-projectionist hyphenate is to water down both the projectionist's contribution to the enterprise of movie entertainment and the manager's. As a result, the customer suffers. In today's multi-window release of movies, many former movie-goers will wait for the video, and attendance goes down. As attendance goes down, prices go up and employers complain they can barely make ends meet. Unions and owners have the same economic reasons for being, but it seems owners are blind to that fact.------------------
Michael Goucher
Michaelg@fox.com
Posted by Kevin Crawford (Member # 469) on 05-13-2000, 11:56 PM:
Rick,
I am with you in that Corporate America has destroyed our trade. However, you cannot deny that as a union we have shot ourselves in our collective foot for not learning more and trying to become more indisposable to the employers.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-14-2000, 11:07 AM:
In Chicago, the union was a joke! With the exception of a handfull(and I mean you could count em on 1 hand) of really good people most were inept at doing the job at best. Most never even cleaned out the machines. Half could not run a platter and they once sent a 1 armed operator out to run 70mm. It took him an hour to thread it up, let alone if a problem occured.....the audience went nuts. These were all nice guys but they really had little knowledge of what went on in a booth. and few could really deal with any problems that crept up. This union was famous for dad teaching son and that sort of thing. They also never had any training internally like other unions did. There were good unions and bad...........
Mark
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-15-2000, 01:44 PM:
Yes, and Chicago also had the good 2-man jobs that they squandered away by having one man collect for two. Sad.------------------
Better Projection Pays!
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-15-2000, 04:46 PM:
Yea Tim and that one operator made right around $74.25 an hour plus all the usual benefits and extras! I don't think brain surgeons make that much per hour...........With the exception of just a few guys the average operators technical knowledge just was not there due to lack of in house training.
Mark