This is topic Kalee Sound Head Conversion in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 03-22-2000, 10:17 AM:
We have just released a conversion for some models of the Gaumont-Kalee sound heads (Types 378,543, and 876). This conversion gives you reverse scan analog complete with the 660nm LED, and optional Dolby SRD. The prototype, which is in service in Australia in one of Don Howard's theatres, is showing consistent error rates of 1 and 2 even when running tired old trailers. I have been asked why we would bother with these old machines. Well, first of all, respect for beautifully made projectors which even many years later are still putting good pictures on the screen. Secondly, I liked the challenge and it was pretty easy to adapt our standard Simplex components which made it economically feasible. Thirdly, Kalee owners need love too.
For pictures and more detail, please go to:
http://www.componentengineering.com/nfnew.html
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Bill Purdy
Comonent Engineering
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2000, 10:52 AM:
What about the SH7500 mirrorphonic soundheads
motiograph users need love too 
Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 03-22-2000, 12:03 PM:
You know, I just might do at least an analog only version. I, too, am fond of Motiographs, but the problem is that I once loaned my only lateral guide roller to someone and it never came back. I have the added incentive that our barely breaking even trade screening room still runs Motiographs and I am sure that he would be most willing guinea pig. I'll keep you posted.------------------
Bill Purdy
Comonent Engineering
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-22-2000, 04:25 PM:
Bill-Why not make a third party SRD soundhead for Christie P35GPS projectors?
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 03-22-2000, 05:34 PM:
I run Motiograph SH-7500 soundheads at the Skyline Drivein in Shelton, Wash.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2000, 09:03 PM:
Also one for the Westrex 5000 35/70machine would be nice two
Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 03-22-2000, 11:17 PM:
Hi Bill, if you want a free SH-7500 guinea pig..Ill send one..you pay the freight!!!
Ill leave the motor off to save 50 or so pounds!!! Let me know, I could use some kits here in MT, ID. John
Posted by David Johnson (Member # 173) on 03-22-2000, 11:29 PM:
I agree that Kalee would possibly the best engineered projector, But what about the Western Electrics 1A and TA 7400-B, I am sure that the few owners that are still alive want all the love that they can get.
David
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-23-2000, 08:28 AM:
Kelmar makes an analog LED kit for the SH7500 Motiograph. I installed a bunch of them at a theater in Burley, Idaho recently. As far as the Kalee goes its long been my favorite projector and I'm glad that Bill has expended the time and money to develop the reader for it. The projector heads have the fit and finish of a swiss watch. Gee here were double speed shutters in a post war projector. The gate and trap is probably the weakest like in the machine and unfortunately the side weave is not much better than a Super Simplex. But with new film they are pretty darn good.
I have measured wow and flutter on just about every sound reproducer out there, and the Kalee model 7 reproducer was consistanlty the lowest and that may account for the low error rate they are gettting. I have found though that the speed varies between machines considerably(due to the V-belt drive)so attention to that aspect may be important to watch for with digital playback.
Mark
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-23-2000, 08:32 AM:
Hey Bill,
What about some sort of LED reader gizmo so I can replace the ten pound tone arm on my Western Electric Vitaphone turntable?
Mark
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-23-2000, 09:32 AM:
The Bauer U2 is another machine that a good reverse scan is needed for
Kalee madea very good wow and flutter meter
The side weeve wasn't that bad on the GK21's but the non fast change apperture was a pain
Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 03-23-2000, 11:16 AM:
Your responses are fun to read because they show where your hearts lie. Where they seem to lie is in the quest for quality, but that tone runs through most of the threads in this forum. I appreciate all the suggestions and offers of equipment, but I have enough to keep me busy for quite awhile. While I did say in the original post that the Kalee was done partly for fun, there also had to be at least some expectation of making enough money to justify the costs. We are, and hope to continue to be a profit making organization.
While it would also be fun to tackle some of the other older machines, I fear that the return just isn't there. There may be enough SH7500's still in service to make it worthwhile, but old Western Electrics, I don't think so. (I like the idea of the disc transducer, but I think that it has already been done. It's called a "CD Player".) Another problem often is that we don't have any of the machines hereabouts which we can use for our development. We offer a large "Thank you" to Dick Prather of Portland, OR, for the loan of the Kalee.
Christie's problems are for them to solve and I think that they know this. It is important for us to stay friendly with them as many of our customers want our automation system in Christie consoles, and so we must work together.
In the meantime, we do have other projects in development and will certainly keep you all informed as they are ready for the world.
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Bill Purdy
Comonent Engineering
Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 03-28-2000, 07:23 PM:
I noticed you have an analog reader for the RCA MI9030. What about the MI1050?------------------
Bob Throop
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 03-28-2000, 07:48 PM:
And don't forget the RCA 1040 soundhead, which is similar to the 1050. I have several theaters here in the south Puget Sound area still running these soundheads.
Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 03-29-2000, 09:09 AM:
This is a "Yes, but," answer. Our regular RCA adapter will fit but it is quite a job to get it in there. The problem is that the exciter lamp housing is shorter than in the 9030 series. Also, there is a cast in vent slot that is in the way. Therefore, what you have to do is remove the whole sub-assembly which has the lens mount as a part of it. Then you get your Sawzall and remove the piece of metal which hangs down (it is really a light trap). Put the reader into the lens mount (using the adapter sleeve which we supply), re-install the assembly and align.The LED end, however, is quick and easy.
See what I mean, yes, but!
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Bill Purdy
Comonent Engineering
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-29-2000, 10:41 AM:
There a re still many Bauer U2 35/70 machines in operation in north america a reverse scan for them would be a good idea
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 03-29-2000, 01:06 PM:
Gordon, you seem to be another Bauer U2 freak. I love those machines, and I am happy to hear that there are still some in operation.
I would also be interested in a conversion to accomodate SR-D basement. Optical was upgraded to laser some years ago, as I needed an alternative to the crap sound lens originally in there. But if I could be helpful in convincing Bill, this would save my time in engineering something myself. I could temporalily spare a soundhead as a sample...
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-29-2000, 05:54 PM:
Actualy Stefan I have a extreme dislike of the U2 but I have to service quite a few so be it
The U2 doesn't even get in the top 10 of 70mm machines Wassman Eurokino and the Pro35/70 rate above it
#1 Westrex 5000
#2 DP70 (AAII)
#3 Century JJ
#4 DP75
#5 Prevost (zies favorite)
#6 Ballantyne Pro35/70
#7 Wassman
#8 Victoria 10
#9 Victoria 8
#10 Simplex
Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 03-30-2000, 10:29 AM:
I am afraid that the problem remains that there are none of these machines in this corner of the country---particularly one which I could have in my shop for a couple of months. I appreciate Stefan's offer of the sound head, but that is a long way to ship it and I really need the whole machine. Part of the dificulty is that Dolby is highly protective of the use of their components, particularly the digital ones. I, therefore, have to be able to justify making some of these things by being able to confirm proper performance. I can hear the laughter now from all of those who are using "approved" projectors which don't really do it. The fact remains, however, that those machines are, or were once, capable of demonstrating good results when properly aligned and maintained. We were visited at ShoWest time by the man from Australia who encouraged and tested the Kalee version. As a part of his tour he went to Omaha, and was disturbed by what he saw when watching 5 Star sound head being assembled. Being the sort who can be a bit pushy but with a disarming smile, he managed to take a head which was showing 5's and 6's, and before their very eyes tweak it down to what he reports to me was an error rate of 1.8. All it took was care.
Another quick story, our Tech Service guy, Don Olson, was asked to check out a theatre in Las Vegas while we were there for ShoWest. In the house where they had refunded the night before but were back on the screen with absolutely horrible sound---even in analog, he took one look, reached down with his little finger nail and flicked the pile of old punched out splicing tape perforations from the surface of the sound drum and, Voila!, good stable SRD at an acceptable error rate.
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Bill Purdy
Comonent Engineering
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-30-2000, 12:54 PM:
Bill,
You might be able to get a U-2 hulker from Bob McRae to get this thing going. That should be easy since he's only a few miles frokm you. There are a number of them still running in different corners of the states too. As usual, Bob is not really retired! Why not give him a call??
Mark
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-30-2000, 01:05 PM:
Gord,
Whats this Westrex fetish you've gotten into??
I really disagree with you on your list of 70mm machines. What the heck is so good about the Westrex 70mm? It has a 70mm flat gate, bad for focus with large lamps. I used to own one of the machines that you have and I've worked on it, run it, and do know a bit about it. There might have been a curved gate for some of the last machines made but I have yet to see one in the States or in any other 35/70 Westrex machine for that matter. I ran the one you got from me at home for a while and then shelved it. Didn't run 35mm well either and those crappy pad rollers are a disaster. I might put it at the end of the list but very definately not at the beginning. I might put the Bauer some place in the middle as its really a descent machine both to run and on screen. It is an operators machine though but then so is every 70mm machine. 70mm prints last for ever on a U2 as has been verified by operators that have run that format on them. Mine way outperformed the Westrex. Sure they're a pain in the a.. to work on and get parts for. But thats the only drawback I can think of.
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-30-2000, 05:27 PM:
I have mixed feelings about the U2. It's mag reproduction is wanting...The guide roller arm is so long that it can't adequately control the film over the head and, as such, wanders (laterally). They do project a nice steady image though. The lens and gate moving in unison for threading is a nice touch to ensure perfect focus every time you thread. I also like the fact that the 35 and 70mm sprockets are separate since they will wear out at different times, depending on which format you are playing most.I have a snicking suspicion that the new FP-75E by Kinoton will top my 35/70mm machine list once I get a chance to play with one. The DP-70 and DP-75 are already #1 and #2 for me. The JJ vs the PR-3570 is a toss-up for good and bad points... both are a kludge of sorts, both work well to some degree.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 03-31-2000, 02:20 PM:
There are certainly more favourite projectors, soundheads that would be great to convert. Keeping in mind, that it takes a lot of time and fiddling to get a conversion kit ready, which offeres reproductive, commercial grade results and ease of installation even for not totally perfect engineers, you do require at least a certain quantity of units, as the kits shall be sold "reasonable".
In my country projectors like U2 and Norelcos, together with many other "dinosaurs" are withdrawn from the market at a rather rapid rate, leaving not many for a basis of conversions.
I might be one in three theatre operators to still operate U 2 projectors within 600 miles.
Gordon, sime years ago, I have disliked theese very much, but since I have seen them at a friend's home setup I was fascinated. So I acquired 5 machines within the past 2 years, and started rebuilding to new condition. This helped me understanding quite a lot of the mechanical construction, and suddenly I liked it. It requires far more operator skills and maintenance than my Norelco AA's, but I was able to get outstanding results.
Personally I have liked the design of the KALLEE projectors very much, but technically I learned to hate them. It is nice on display, nothing more. My Kalles were silently as a machine gun, with small reel capacity, non working carbon feed and a terrible retro-scan soundhead from BAF. At least wow and flutter was studio grade, freq. response definitively not.
So everyone might have a favorite of the past, but in modern commercial environment we should go for something of today. With spares readily available, soundheads that need no conversion, etc.
I will go and find a way for the Dolby SR-D, not having to use the CAT 699 from 1993. And I will keep you informed, if I was able to make a conversion kit that meets the above requirements.
The boy that does projection in my theatre rarely uses the U2's, he goes for the Kinotone FP 30D, "due to ease of operation".
There's nothing to add to this statement.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-31-2000, 04:26 PM:
Stefan,
There is one thing left........
Where do you get parts for the U-2? I would consider seeking out a pair,again,if parts were a more available. Who is your supplier even if he is overseas. If I do another home screening room I'd definately lok for a pair.
What didn't you like about the Kalee? The things are built like a Swiss watch!
Thanks in advance!
Mark
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-31-2000, 05:50 PM:
Mark
My Westex 5000's (one usedto be yours) has been used manytimes with Ultra 80's at 7Kw with no focus flutter.
After rebuilding the gates (velvet bands added the picture is rock steady and very quiet.
Also after I rebuilt the pad roller assemblies (they had been assembled backwards) they give no problem
My only complaint is the verrrrrrry long verticle shaft that is basically a Century one almost twice as long and it probably will twist
Also most of the older straight gate century C's always had a stabler picture than the curved SA and the Westrex uses a C style trap and gate
There light weight makes them ideal for rentals as well and the large gear box allowed the shaft encoder to be inside the gear box
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 04-01-2000, 03:48 PM:
Marc,
spares are one point. Some could still be obtained from Kinotone, but at prices noone likes. Mainly you'll need ball bearings for the soundheads, which could be obtained as a standard DIN / ISO item at about $2, but I would recommend to use measured pairs with no tangential and lateral play. Thhey go at about $ 200 a piece, and it's 8 you'll need. Pick your choice in our digital sound age.
Sprockets use a standardized teeth form, which anybody who could mill sprockets can make. It is just the centrebore thats different for different types of projectors.
The same applies to guide rollers, they can still be obtained, but anybody with a lathe can do them.
Another source is to look out for all projectors you can get, and keep them for spares. After all my projectors were free, and even taking into account they ran continuously for nearly 40 years, I did not require more spares than some rollers and the mentioned ball-bearings. And of course slitlaser-modules to get rid of those horrible EMO slit lenses with the weird exciter lamp.
There are Italien and other companies that make sprockets at reasonable cost (about $ 30 per sprocket). As the structure is CAD machinery, the quality has become quite good. I have learnt from an Indian guy, that they have people making Bauer spares (and even Bauer B11 projector copies), as this was a very common and beloved brand. I do not know about the quality.
The classic Bauer projectors, before U3, were of extreme ruggid quality within the gearbox. With regular oil changes (SAE 30, no additives or detergants) they could reach 150+ years in daily operation, according to a factory engineer. I doubt that figure, but I have not found any projector so far to fail with gearbox problems.
As far as I know, that applied to many classic projectors of the past, even though we had some maltese cross failiures with Norelco AA's, where wings broke off, as they seemed to use a small cross made of tempered steel, instead of the large (2") tool grade stell cross of the Bauer, Zeiss and Italien projectors.
I have owned a pair of Kalle 21's, that came from the Streit's theatre in Hamburg, where they were installed in 1956. The theatre was owned by Rank theatres, a part of the Rank organization, as Kallee was. They were replaced in early 1963 with Kallee 60 equipment, which is actually imported Vic 8 from Milan. I do not know the exact reason for withdrawl, as this theatre never ran 70 mm, before 1992, when a DP 75 was installed for the screening of LOA re-release. Theese projectors were also withdrawn from operation in scandinavien contries, and replaced with AGAs or Bauers.
The Kalles looked precisely built. I loved them at first sight, when I got a de-luxe color brochure when I was a teen-ager. So I needed to own them, which came true some years later.
But after all it was massive, bulky gear, we carried home. We set them in operation, and by far it was the loudest running projector we had encountered. Picture steadiness was better on other equipment I knew, format change was complicated, simelar to pre WW2 equipment.
One projector - BAF 83 soundhead combination was then rebuilt on a special pedestal to be accomodated in a friend's condo for private collector's purposes. It was run with a 500 W xenon, until (during a night out at the movies - a Stallone action thing with lots of fire) his appartment burnt out, and the flames broiled and cooked the projector head.
Later on we heard from the neighbour woman downstairs: "I always knew, when you were screening film, it was like an electric power plant was running above the ceiling."
I still keep the other one in my collection, as it is nice to look at. My feeling was simply, it looked better than it performed.
Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 04-03-2000, 04:40 PM:
I have been most interested to read the various comments on the Kalee projectors and later 70mm Projectors, I afraid that I must disagree with Mark Gulbrandsen comments on the Westrex 5000, I too own one and found no problem projecting 35mm, I found the picture steady than some of the newer projectors I have worked on in recent years!.
As for 70mm there were known picture focus on the 5000, but I have not experienced this myself so far.
There are in fact, still several Westrex 5000's installations in cinemas in the UK, one in London has five Screens.
As for the Kalee, yes they were well built for their time, but they did have their own faults, like compound gears problems, and mostly leaking oil, however you tried to stop it!. to say they sound like a "sewing machine", must be a seen to be belived!, most I seen are noisy as a concrete mixer and has anyone had the pleasure and tried to move a Kalee 21 base?.
The most liked of the Kalee's is the 11, and may be the Kalee 21 on a 83 soundhead, the worse must be the Kalee 37.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-03-2000, 04:59 PM:
An antidotal note on the Kalee's from 2 incidents one I saw the other I heard of
In toronto we used to have a grind theatre that ran on a 24hour schedule running a mix of action, westerns and porn. The replaced there E7's that didn't like the load witha pair of full blown GK21's with the big base that were removed from another theatre
2 days after the installation I had to go to the theatre as both machines were in the auditorium haveing gone right through the booth floor due to there weight. I believe the teardrop base that the lower mag fits on is about 1200lbs
A similar storie was told to me by EdMcCormak who used to be the head of Engineering for Rank Odeon in Canada and he told we of when he installed a pair in the UK the crashed through the booth floor overnight and landed on the managers original Louis the 14th desk in the office below. The insurance payout for the desk exceeded the cost of the rest of the damage. Apparently the old Ross GC's were put back in service
I had the occasion to remove a pair and was told they were to be destroyed.
So rather than smashing them up with the hammer at about 3 in the morning (having had a few beers earlier) We decided that rather than smashing them up and carrying all the pieces out to the dumpster we moved the dumpster into the side laneway beside the theatre and pushed the full assembled machines out the fire exit into the dumpster 3 stories below.
Well when we went downstairs to survey our handywork we discovered we had forgotten Sir Isac newtons rules of acceleration as the three machines landed in the dumpster and whent right through the bottom of it imbedding themselves in a historic century old cobbleston lane
Needless to say there was a lot of explaining to do to many authorities.
Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 04-03-2000, 08:10 PM:
Interesting story about the GK 21 Gordon,I have worked with these fine machines over the years,they are built like a tank and they just keep running and running no matter what you do to them.There are a few here in Australia still earning a dollar for thier owners.Stefan I have used the Bauer B11 for a few years back in the late 80s and they to were very well built,we never had the back of them the whole time we used them,last I heard they ended up trashed and dumped.I wish I had purchased them myself to save them from that fate, they were a fine piece of German engineering as is the Buaer U3 and of course the Kinoton.
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