My feelings, and some of my experiences with the RCA machines(the basis for the present Westrex electronic projector) are listed below...........These are in no way ment to bash the electronic projector in general. They are a good thing but.........

The first thing to consider is that the average lifespan of an electronic projector will be in the area of 5 to 7 years....ok, we'll be generous and say 7 to 10 years. At this point the semiconductors will be very difficult, if not impossible for the manufacturer to obtain through normal chanels. And my experience dicatates that they will ONLY go through normal channels. A major reason for this is that the machinery is removed by the semi manufacturer and also upgraded to make newer, and better chips, etc. I have experienced that this is especially true of eproms, memory,and cpu's. This problem is very common in the Broadcast Industry, and in the Lighting Industry, not to mention the computer industry itself where techonology can outpace itself the very same day.
One of our customers for instance has dimmer racks made by the largest, oldest manufacturer in the world of this tyoe of equipment. They were purchased new in 1992, and the processor and control cards are no longer made and semis are now very scarce(only available surplus). 1992 is not that long ago folks! The three options here are to scare up the parts when they break down, upgrade the racks with new computers at a cost of 6500.00 per rack times 6 racks, or sell them new racks at just under 100K! That just does not cut it at a large University where these are located. Even they have budgets to go by for capital outlay.
Realistically, if you look at this picture, you will find that these machines will probably prove to be far more expensive than a standard machine running in the average theater application simply due to the fact that they won't last as long. Consider that the your normal Simplex theater projector lasts 25 years(with normal maintainance of course),and that after just 7 to say 10 years you will have the expense of getting a new electronic machine, or of hopefully being able to upgrade the electronic machine at what will probably be an exorbatant price.......if it can even be done. Most manufacturers would probably prefer to sell you a new machine than an upgrade.

My second worry is the rewinding through the film path scenerio. The worry here is if the something in the wind servo system should go amuck. I've actually seen this happen. Talk about film and machine damage.....no other film pile up compares to having this happen! It only takes about a second to destroy important film path parts, and film. Especially with polyestar film. Even well designed safety circuits may not be able to prevent this either, it can happen way to fast. Ever see a 1/2 horse servo motor go from crawl to full speed in one second? Film reels sing when they spin at 5000 rpm. Thats what happens.
At any rate I still don't feel that these are really practical theater type machines. Sure they work good now, but what about in 10 years? And they too will require the attention of a qualified tech if you can find one.
Mark

As to Simplex heads lasting 25 years with proper maintenance, I beg to differ! Mine's 21 years old next January, and still runs as good as new. I've probably spent more money in light bulbs over the years than I've spent in projector repairs. It will probably run for 50 years easy, as long as there's film to run in it!
 

Oops...sorry. There I go reading too fast (again).
 

On the subject of semiconductor availability or more directly, integrated circuit (I think of semiconductors as the more basic two leaded stuff) it is certainly true that they come and go.

Shortly after earning my BSEE degree, I decided to make a CP-50 upgrade board (Model 506T) to allow it to play digital sound formats (at the time DTS and Dolby dig) with either or both connected plus some other features. Well I went about making all the features I wanted. I found nice ICs to allow 4 6-channel inputs (Optical, DTS, Dolby Digital and Pink Noise). I breadboarded the important circuits, tested and improved things, CADed up the schematics and designed a PCB layout...and debugged all that. Made a proto PCB. Tested it out on a couple of vintages of CP-50s (There are three backplanes for the CP-50)...I think there were a couple of tweeks to do at that point but they were minor. Finally. Victory! It was green lighted for limited projection. So I made up my bill of materials and started placing orders with our vendors for the parts ....WHAM "Sorry but that chip (the one I was using for the audio switching) has just been discontinued and there is no direct replacement!" Now the whole process listed above took only a month or two. So yes it does indeed happen where things that were available, are no longer.

I learned a valuble lesson on that project. When you design something, you must look at what are the expectations of your intended market (i.e. longevity, in the film biz). If you are going to make a "one-off" then such things are not of much concern so long as it is reliable enough to make it through it's intended use. I mean, nothing lasts forever. But, when you are designing and making things for this industry, it is better to use a more stable (marketwise) technology over absolute performance.

In my case, I ended up using the DG409 analog mux to make the final version of the 506T. Why? It had adequate performance, acceptable price, and it could be sourced from several chip manufacturers (Siliconix, Harris and Maxim come to mind). It would take a big market shift to kill it off anytime soon.

What does this have to do with electronic projectors, or reel to reel? Well it is certainly possible for an electronic projector (like other electronic equipment) to be designed using single source chips and as such can become no longer available. But this isn't confined to electronic projectors, as my little story tells, even Dolby has run into this on their products (the Cat. 222 was replaced, partly due to chip obsolescence with the Cat. 222A). How negatively has this affected users of the Cat. 222? Not much and if they have a failure, the RX will be a 222A. They didn't have to scrap their CP-55s or pay huge upgrade costs. I feel the same can be true with electronic projectors.

If the designer of the projector is good, then controller board obsolecence shouldn't be the end of the world, one merely replaces it with a current version. One thing about such technology (single board computers and such) is that they seem to be able to do more and more with less real estate and as such lower/similar costs for both purchase and upgrades with more features should be possible.

The bottom line really comes down to how well the unit is designed rather than IC discontinuation.

Kinoton is NOT exactly new to either the projection or electronic projection industry. The FP-30/38EC has been out for years (over a decade yet, Larry?) and they hopefully wouldn't put their reputation in jeapordy over "quick and dirty" design.

Then again, if Digital Cinema has it's way, who will care 10 years from now, when what ever is in it, may or may not be gone.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

I think you missed the point of my post. (I think it might have been buried in there).

Sure it is possible that the Kinoton units are being designed with single source units but that isn't necessarily the case.
Kinoton is an old-timer in the projection industry. I wouldn't compare a theatrical lighting system to them. When designing a sophisticated lighting system, an engineer is apt to use an ASIC (application specific IC), and other single source IC for cost and speed reasons. If the unit gets past the warranty period, they have done their job. Heck, there are amplifier manufacturers that hord some of their output devices (for repairs) because they can't get them anymore.

I haven't found Kinoton to be pricey either. Their PK-60 series is cheaper than either Simplex or Century, similarly equipped. Furthermore, SR*D is only a $550 or so option over the standard reader...compare that to everyone else. If you are talking about parts for obsolete machines and other low-volume items, sure they are somewhat pricey but not prohibitively so. Again compared to other manufacturers, the parts are discontinued.

But putting all that aside, motor controller technology isn't exactly cutting edge and should not be facing obsolescense in a 10-year period, if anything, the cost of any repair boards should be less. Shoot the controllers for motors have never been cheaper (and smaller).

I think rasing a red flag on electronic projectors (especially from a company like Kinoton) is a little like pointing out that LaVezzi could stop making projection parts and put Century, Simplex and Christie (plus others) on the skids.

On servicing, have you seen the service manual for the Kinoton E machines? I find it easier to follow than some of these new-fangled computer automations.

I don't see E projectors any more of a concern than other equipment. They are all suseptable. Time will tell if your concerns are warranted.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 

We can still get regular 7400 series DIP style IC's. Our buyer finds them in remote places, but does find them. Not big quanities, only 50-100 at a time. The last batch we got from a US air force base in Germany. We have to send them out to another place to clean the oxidation off of the leads before wave-soldering them.

On the other hand, right now there is a shortage of surface-mount tantiumn caps. They are out to 6 months delivery. Also, a company discontinued a surface-mount DS3 IC we use after only making it for 4 years. So now I have to design and make another PC board to take a new one.

I find that: you can get old stuff- it's new stuff that being discontinued after only a short time.

Also, Gordon is right. No one documents anymore. Not only does quick "time to market" mean less time documenting, but many times the enginnering staff quit for other more interesting work after the product goes out. Let's face it; if you not the one actually servicing the product, it's boring to write documentation for it.
 

Mark, some Kinoton parts are expensive and some are not, but I believe they are of higher quality than some others', and old machines are supported (we have lots of parts stock for FP-5's and 6's). The 7kW bulb adapter for the Ultra 80 was $73.00 list in '98. The intermittent motor/encoder ass'y for the current EC is $4180.00 list.

Not to be a jerk, but all electromechanical things get old, become hard (and uneconomical) to repair. Projectors are just another example.

-Larry
 

I don't question the electronic things age but to put things in general statements like 5-7 years of obsolescence is a bit silly, depending on the piece. Televisions don't seem to die at that rate (or at least mine haven't). And please don't use a "List" price as a justification of a pricey item. Isn't the JJ intermittent "list" price knocking up around that area ($4180) or am I thinking of during the hyperinflation ORC-post-CDS days.

Would I spec an electronic intermittent today over a mechanical just for that one feature? No. It is an unecessary expense (typically a $3000+ option). A properly maintained mechanical will last a very long time. If I am trying to perform a particular purpose (silent speed, shuttle speed...etc) sure it is currently the best tool for the job.

On the cost of maintaining Kinoton machines, about the only expense we seem to see is for replacing the delrin skates or for the Norelco DP-70, the tension bands. For all the whining about DP-70 parts, how often do you really need them once you have the machine up and running? In the last 20 or so years of running and servicing them, I can't recall having to spend any real volumes of money, and in theatres that have Century and/or Simplex machines the DP-70s are cheapest on the cost/year of any of them.

Compare that to say the early Christie P-35 where the ones put in 15 years ago have almost all been replaced (out here at least), the entire projector. Mechanical projectors can face the same thing.

I still maintain that comparing an electronic lighting company and that industry to the film projection industry is not a fair comparision though it is a closer comparison to the up and coming Digital Cinema industry.

Gord, as far as SMART processors go, lets face it, they are disposable items, one is only fooling themselves if they think any other way, including if they think they compare favorably (sonically) to brands such as Dolby. When one designes something to meet a price point, you do so at the expense of other things, longevity, servicability and the like are examples.

Our fist Kinoton FP-38ES machines (the wowie-sowie one) that are 35/16mm, go forward and reverse (both projection and shuttle) will be going in this summer. Again, we will see if there are any long term negative affects.

I am remain optomistic.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

I dont want computers to control everything.

I am sick and tired of seeing theaters having to replace big money items because of single IC's not being available for their repairs.

I used to repair TV's for Sears. Sanyo built a nice series of sets that used a Sanyo-designed IC chip in the power supply that controlled the regulator. This was around 1981. In 1984, we were told that Sears no-longer stocked this particular IC, and that any sets with this chip were now unrepairable when a regulator problem was indicated. I saw many of these sets get tossed because of this chip. I thought it sucked then, and still do. Sanyo stopped building the IC, and the customers suffered. Sears never told customers why their sets were not being fixed, just that the "parts were no longer available."

Note: When Sears still stocked this IC, it only cost $7.99, and that was the marked-up price!

The above mentioned Smart system with the IC that is also used in some Delco radio systems hit me directly. My car system had to be replaced because of this IC failure, and no junkyard had anything that I could use.

Why is it that the electronics world no longer has parts that are "standard"???

Am I just living in the past, or am I just being stupid wanting to buy something that will last and function well for many many years without worrying that individual parts, when they die, have become obsolete?

Just my 2 cents worth.

Bruce
 

"Am I just living in the past, or am I just being stupid wanting to buy something that will last and function well for many many years without worrying that individual parts, when they die, have become obsolete?"

Good point, and I agree with you. But, really, it's socity that encourages this "throw it away" type of life. IC manufacturers are no different that most other industries- there is a big push to always make it smaller, faster, lighter, etc. IC manufacturers can't be expected to continue to make, stock, and support everything they have ever made, especially when functions overlap.

When, say, "Mr. Century" designed a projector in 1925, technology moved slower, and that design could be expected to last many years. Today, things move much faster and designs are only expected to last a short time- so why do a _really_ good job of engineering? Employees no longer feel loyal to their company (and visa-versa) so they quit and knowledge of a product is not passed along. I saw a fairly good selling product die because the guy who wrote the firmware code quit, and no one could pick it up. OTOH, we have customers actually throw away a perfectly good portable PC we made because it ran on DOS, and they wanted Windows. IC manufacturers are only giving what the large percentage of customers want.

It gets even worse in the motion picture equipment industry, because it's cheap by nature and most purchases are multiplyed by 15(-plex) or 20 (-plex.) A few dollars saved on each screen can add up to a lot. Owners don't want to pay for "good" -they only want to pay for "good enough." (Thin sheet metal on platter decks that wave around like a warped LP record really bug me, as do those cheap split gimble mount platter rollers.) A Cinemecannica V5 is not a bad machine, but it's a toy compaired to a V8. A Kineton PK60D is about the best thing made today (certainty in the top 3) but do you think it will last as long as a AA-II?

People want cheap, they want it right away with whiz-bang features, and don't really care about servicing. And if any manufacturer doesn't go along with that, they will go in the same direction as Ashcraft and Motiograph.

I'm glad I could cheer all of you up.. !
 

And here is your answer (from experience)...

If you would re-read my little story from above, you will see how it hit me.

But more specifically, an engineer has all the options in the world at his/her disposal at the onset of design but ultimately constraints will come in...that is price and size plus time till completion. One could design a particular circuit using SSI (Small Scale Integration) usng the various TTL and CMOS families of chips and be pretty safe with chip availability since there are many sources for them (I still use them myself). The problem is what if it is a complex circuit or even a semi-complex circuit and it takes say 6 14-pin packages to do the same function as say 1 8pin purpose built package? That saves a bunch of PCB space, which saves cost (in both design and production). Multiply this same senerio for all the separate functions of a device and you start to get into real savings of size and price.
Now let's say you take away even these families...you COULD still go back to discrete transistors and make the equivalent circuit but think about the size and cost! It would get quite silly.

So when you find a purpose built IC that does a particular function, you run the risk that it may not be around for extremely long. Like everything else, it is a matter of economics as to take the chance vs. potential bad customer will...in the case of a TV set, what are the percentage of the units that failed after the part was discontinued, how long did it take to fail after the warranty, just how upset did the whole consumer base (not just the customers that got stuck) get over this problem? If it comes out to an insignificant number, then it was a reasonable choice. I'm sure if this was God's gift to TVs, someone would have come up with a suitable kludge to get it going again using a new chip design (that would shortly become obsolete itself).

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

This throw-away mentality is not going to stop.

The Sanyo stuff made it an average of 2 years after the warranty. I often wondered if Sears planned it this way. I wonder if they owned the IC patents?

Bruce
 

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