Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Strange projection story

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Posted by Andy Davis (Member # 262) on 04-11-2000, 07:39 PM:

I was doing a routine xenon lamp change (picture dim, flickering)today and to my surprise, the lamphouse (ORC) hand douser was laying in the reflector, against the xenon lamp! My first reaction was "DAAAAMMMMNNNN!!!!!" and I didn't understand why there wasn't a pile of broken glass laying in the lamphouse. When I pulled it out, I noticed some marking on the glass of the xenon lamp from where the douser hit it, but the reflector was unscratched. I found out that a couple of months ago, a projectionist tried to close the hand douser and the handle broke off. The douser itself fell down into the reflector and landed on the xenon lamp. He didn't tell anybody what happened and nobody seemed to notice since the hand douser is rarely used. The on-screen presentation was just a little dim, despite having a large piece of metal stuck in the reflector. This is probably the strangest thing I've ever witnessed in the booth. Anybody else have any strange stories like this?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-11-2000, 09:38 PM:

A long story- but it's late and some people like details.......

A theater I worked at had an old RCA 35/70 magnetic sound system installed in 1961 for, "West Side Story." In this setup, they put two electrical boxes, one above the other, on the left side of the booth on the front wall. Each box had a long steel rod with levers on it that went across the front wall of the booth, just above the port windows. One box controlled the volume, and the other did the mag sound changover. So, there was only one electrical control that could be operated from either projector. If you wanted to make a mag c/o, you would put your foot on a floor pedal and your right hand on the lever above your head and spin it up (for #1) or down (for #2.)

There was a third box high up on the wall that was the high voltage power supply for the amplifier tubes in the racks below. All these boxes had "MI-XXXXX" numbers on them.

The previous operator had told me that if you let the upper magazine door on projector 2 open all the way, it would touch one of the rods and cause a 60hz hum in the sound system. He said several Altec people had looked at it over the years, and could not fix it.

I started working there in 1978 or so and it looked like 18 years of various kinds of tape had been stuck to the door and the rod. There were bits of friction tape, duct tape, masking tape, transparent tape, with a strange gooey mess all around.

In 1980, after running, "SW: Empire" in 70mm, it was decided to twin the theater. All the RCA stuff was to be thrown out. The owners asked me to do a nice job removing it because they thought they would sell it (Ha-ha! They ended up paying someone a lot to haul it away.)

The first thing I did was get ready to remove the third power supply box. I opened it up and saw a terminal strip. One terminal was clearly labeled, "AC HOT" with a white wire connected to it. Next to it was, "NET" with a black wire.

I thought; I wonder if..... and I reversed them. I powered on the system one last time and made the door electrically touch. The hum was gone.

Posted by Alan Brandt (Member # 426) on 04-11-2000, 10:48 PM:

At my theater, some bozo-dorkbutt manager decided to have us replace a bulb mid-show. His reasoning was because he didn't like the way the picture looked on the screen that show. I thought he was bein' a crazy-ol-bastard, but he was quite serious. Since general policy is to only change bulbs when there is a problem with them, or when they expire, I needed a reason to replace a bulb midshow. It was then that my co-worker decided to squirt liquid air inside the lamphouse WHILE IT WAS ON!!

Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 04-11-2000, 11:43 PM:

Here's something that's very strange. A nice old single screen theatre here in DC is being converted into a twin by it's new owners. What's strange about that? Check out how they're doing it:
http://www.visionsdc.com/theplans/index.shtml

They are cutting the booth in half to add a balcony to the larger theatre (this place had no balcony originally). The projectors and a five deck platter will be squeezed into what's left of the booth and the image will be shooting out to the screen at an insane angle, especially for the larger house. They are really going to run movies like this!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-12-2000, 12:55 AM:

I say to hell with the balcony. Apparently presentation is not #1 on their adjenda. I'll bet those subtitled art films will look especially wonderful there.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-12-2000, 01:51 PM:

Theatre architects today seem blissfully unaware of keystone distortion, be it with high rake stadium seating, or this (to put it kindly) "unconventional design".

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Dwayne Caldwell (Member # 417) on 04-12-2000, 09:17 PM:

They're calling this place Visions. They didn't specify that the visions had to be good. I'm wondering if that right side wall that's curved in the smaller house is going to throw off the EQ any. All of the theatre auditoriums I've ever seen are pretty equilateral.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-12-2000, 10:57 PM:

What makes you think that they'll EQ? Judging by the design and prioritization of the projection, I doubt they care too much for sound, either.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-12-2000, 11:41 PM:

Or perhaps they are mearly film lovers who are playing out they're dream of owning they're own theater and showing classic movies all the time. Maybe they don't know a whole lot about projection. Maybe someone with some fancy title behind their name (John?) should send them a formal email pointing out some of the flaws of their plan.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-13-2000, 10:00 AM:

That place might not be _too_ bad. I can't read the drawing to see what the throw is, but we did something like that at a theater we used to own. It had a 125ft. throw, and the screen was only 26 ft wide. Not ideal, of course, but it looked OK.

I don't think there are any "real" theater architects left. Of course, theaters today are designed from the candy stand out- and I don't blame them for that. That's what the owners want. But when many of them can't even get things like a port window right, (one guy was going to put ours 5 feet up) You know they just want to make their "statement of architecural art" and have ingored what the building is _for_. The days of Lamb, Eberson, and Slesinger (sp?) are not only long gone, but forgotten. Luckly, SMPTE has many articles by Slesinger, so if someone takes an interest, the're there.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 04-13-2000, 07:12 PM:

It's bad enough that twining of existing theaters gets handled this way, but how about cases where a theater is built that way on purpose? In Las Vegas, Century built several new multiplexes with projection booths that were centered on the auditorium side walls with a pair of machines in each. So in each theater, projection was from a rear corner, with opposite corners being used for every other theater. Of course, no PC collars. Gads!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-14-2000, 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joe Redifer:
What makes you think that they'll EQ? Judging by the design and prioritization of the projection, I doubt they care too much for sound, either.

Nahh.......

Dobly? We can't spend THAT kind of money after all we apent on our beautiful new balcony. Just take out that port glass and turn up the booth monitor.

------------------
"It's not the years honey, it's the mileage".
Indiana Jones.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 04-14-2000, 06:05 AM:

Strange projection story:

I ran an old archive print (I forget which film it was, unfortunately) with lots of cement splices. The reels, six of them as I recall it, were not made up or anything. This was a five change-over show as is the routine where I work. So while one reel was rolling, I was rewinding the previous, edge-inspecting it with my fingers to locate any damage. These prints are often very fragile so inspecting them is a Very Good Thing To Do.

So anyway, I was rewinding and inspecting reel number five while reel six was rolling, when I suddenly felt the print to, well, lose shape and get narrower. I stopped and saw that between two cement splices, about thirty seconds of the reel had split into two 17.5 mm halves. The first splice was halfway broke, but the second was intact.

The really strange thing is that the projector had simply continued running the reel as if nothing had happened. The two halves (of which one was loose!) neatly wound themselves on the takeup. There was sound through the whole incident (I always keep the booth monitor on to spot any trouble as soon as possible). The image on the screen showed no problems, of course, since the split probably occured below the gate, perhaps on the intermittent. No strange sounds warning me that something was wrong came from the projector. No warnings, no symptoms, no nothing, so of course I didn't notice anything until rewinding.

How's that for a strange projection story?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-14-2000, 08:23 AM:

Ari, do you use film failsafe detector?

It was a common problem for film to split length-wise when using some failsafe detectors. Usually, but not always, that projector has an automation system. I havn't seen it since the big move to polyster.

So, the split could have started even after the soundhead. I never was able to tell what started it.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-14-2000, 08:24 AM:

Ari:

I've heard of several similar film splitting incidents before. It usually occurs with triacetate film, and the tear usually begins at a splice that partly broke. As you may know, the film is usually under constant tension in the soundhead, and this tension allows a tear to propagate down the center of the film strip, while the film is being supported and transported by the sprocket teeth on each side of the film. In many cases, the failsafe does not detect this tearing, since the film is still running over the sprockets and hasn't actually "broken" in a way that trips the failsafe sensor.

Obviously, the person who last showed the print didn't inspect the film for problems as they wound it back onto shipping reels. I suspect that it was at a theatre that wasn't using platters, and they just took up the print onto shipping reels during the last show, which is evidently when this tear happened. Obviously, the film exchange didn't inspect the print either.

Moral of the story is to ALWAYS inspect a print, feeling the edges with your fingers, before you project it. (As you did ). Even new prints can have a nicked edge or torn lab splice. Used prints are almost never inspected by the film exchange (the distributors refuse to pay for this optional service), so "caveat printor" .

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 04-14-2000, 09:01 AM:

John - both of you

The print in question print was probably thirty years old or more, and its usual resting place is the fridge at the Swedish Film Institute. I have no idea when it was screened last, either, because only very rarely do we get inspection protocols with the prints. The last time was probably years before I got it, because the way we operate is that we get the prints directly from the Film Institute, and send them back to them right after the show. See, none of the prints is in distribution anymore. They can't be ordered by the local theatre chain.

Most of the prints I get have never been near a platter; they are too old for that. Platters weren't common in Sweden until well into the eighties, and the vast majority of the films we play are much older than that.

And yes; I did inspect the print, and felt all those awful dry cement splices. I replaced a few of the most dangerous ones - the ones that were so dry that you only had to bend the film base slightly for the splice to break - but to replace all would simply not be practical. Besides, the Swedish Film Institute always assures me that the prints are throughly inspected before they're sent to us.

Yeah. Right.

I got a 70mm print of "Little Big Man" from them once where 10 minutes of one of the reels was spliced with the wrong side up, that is, half of the reel had the sound strips facing the wrong direction. Had I trusted them to actually have inspected the print, I would have ended up with a hugely embarrassing show...

And no, we don't have a failsafe. We don't have any kind of automation because the theatre where I work was built and closed down by the local theatre chain before anyone thought of installing a platter there. When we reopened as a revival house, the idea of automation was somewhat less than practical.

I think it was Scott who said that he actually likes film inspection. I do, too. I wouldn't be working for a revival house if I didn't.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 04-15-2000, 04:58 PM:

My partner, Ky, built up his very first film the other day. It was All About My Mother. He only built it up on 6,000' reels as all our platters are in use. He had heard me mention that I like to leave the tail on the film when rewinding because it limits scratching on the reel.

Our projectionist put it on the platter on Thursday night. On the first film Friday there was a report that the film was out of frame. I ran up and reframed.

Before the next show I checked the splice and dicovered that it was a masking tape splice. WTF! I was in a hurry and fixed the splice. I couldnt figure out why it was there?

The next show it was out of frame again! When I checked it this morning, I dicovered that our stupid projectionist had spliced the tail into the picture without checking or looking. What is all the more amazing is that the masking tape splice went through the projector just fine. Go figure.

Before I got to post this; I heard a strange noise from the projector behind me. It sounded like metal on metal. Not the best sound.

At the end of the movie, the changeover douser came loose and was hitting the shutter blade. I had to dissasemble it, find a washer, reassemble it and start the next film. I had 20 minutes. I took 27 minutes. I'm going to take a nap now.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 04-16-2000, 01:04 AM:

Very strange story:

We were running some lame movie, I think it was "Down To You". During its last show run, it suffered our first brain wrap in six months. We got that fixed in 5 minutes and cranked it back up. Five minutes later it did it again. Another five minutes and we are back in business. And yes again it did it again. Seven times it brain wrapped, and each time there was NOTHING wrong with anything at all. When we looked at it, perfect, until we walked away. Then brain wrap.

And this is what really gets me, after we fixed the seventh wrap, three FULL boxes jumped from a top shelf across the floor, EIGHT FEET across the floor. I think I have a little devlish spirit walking my booth.

------------------
"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 04-17-2000, 08:53 AM:

Dave:

We had one of those too, in an old 1921-vintage theatre I used to work. It's true! I know that not everyone believes in this type of thing, but strange, inexplicable things used to happen to our equipment on a routine basis. If someone had told me about any of this stuff, I wouldn't have believed them, but I was the relief man at the time and I saw it with my own eyes!

Odd things would happen to the prints, too; reels would mysteriously become out of order, and splices would change their framing orientation.

It all stopped, though, when they fired the chief projectionist.

------------------
Better Projection Pays!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-17-2000, 09:35 AM:

We had some sort of spirit, too, but all he did was unscrew random lightbulbs in hard-to-get-to places. It was always "fun" to spend an hour lowering the chandelier to fix bulbs, only to have half of the "burned-out" ones work fine when tightened in their sockets...

Posted by Bryan Redemske (Member # 354) on 04-17-2000, 09:39 AM:

okay, here's my crazy story. it's actually happening right now....odd. okay, 28 Days started on Friday. During the 7 pm showing between reels 5 and 6, it jumped out of frame. Obviously, we're thinking bad splice. However....it didn't do it during the show before. AND, it didn't do it the show after - the projectionist on duty stayed in there and was forced to watch it all.

Now...Saturday afternoon goes by with no prob lems. It never jumps. By then the print had been checked a few times around reels 5 and 6 and nothing has been noticed. So, I'm in the booth Saturday night and during the 9 pm show, it does it again. Hadn't done it all day. Yesterday went by with no jumps. What the HELL is going on?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-17-2000, 10:00 AM:

Bryan:

Sounds like the print jumped off the intermittent sprocket and re-engaged a perf later. Check the tension of the shoe that holds the film against the intermittent sprocket. Also be sure that the gate tension isn't excessive.

The splice between reels 5 and 6 may be a bit stiff or out of line, causing the film to jump off the sprocket. Try remaking the splice.

Posted by Bryan Redemske (Member # 354) on 04-17-2000, 10:36 AM:

John,

prints do that? it was my guess that it was jumping but i didn't know how it possibly could. i'll check on that tonight and remake the splice. thanks!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-17-2000, 10:55 AM:

Bryan:

Prints don't normally do that, but a stiff or out-of-line splice might be just enough to occasionally "pop" the shoe and let the film slip over the intermittent sprocket by a perf or two. So the image would go out of frame.

When you check the splice, check the film around it for damage like nicked perfs or "roping" marks from the sprocket teeth.

Obviously, in a "worst case" situation, by jumping the sprocket, you'd lose the bottom loop and tear/stretch the film.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 04-17-2000, 01:45 PM:

I once worked with a poorly maintained (by AMC) Victoria 8 that would to that fairly often, even with perfect splices, it would occasionally pop the keepers on the intermittant long enough to jump a sprocket or too and then the keepers would close back, 99% of the time fortunatly with the teeth back in a sprocket hole. However it DID eat a print of Exotica, afer that it would not run in that projector but ran just fine in the Simplex's that we had, go figure. I"m SO glad that theatre's closed.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-17-2000, 02:30 PM:

Yep, I was just going to say the same as JP: bad splice. And it used to happen to me with Victoria 9's which have the same type of pad roller for the intermittent sprocket as a Victoria 8. Intermittent pad rollers for Centurys and Simplexes lock down pretty hard, so they usually won't have that particular problem.

Posted by Bryan Redemske (Member # 354) on 04-17-2000, 11:07 PM:

okay, here's the story with the magical jumping film - it didn't do it tonight. it turns out that it's BEFORE the splice, so we spent time trying to find a rough spot or a lab splice or something that's doing it. have yet to find it. the intermittent shoe is now adjusted like it should be...hopefully it won't do any more acrobatics.

thanks for your help!