Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Question about those Slide Ads

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Posted by Sara Serine Orton (Member # 208) on 04-20-2000, 12:56 PM:

I was thinking aobut putting in a porjector for the ever popular slide ads they now have at movie theaters. Will just any 35mm slide projector do? Do they sell ones that are sychronized? Where would i get one? Who must I kill? How does this work?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-20-2000, 01:30 PM:

AFAIK, the slide projectors are usually supplied by the advertising companies contracting with the theatre to show the slide ads. In most cases, they use Kodak slide projectors. Unfortunately, they usually do not use the available modified versions that use brighter metal-arc or xenon-arc light sources, so the projectors tend to be much too dim on a big screen.

At ShoWest, a new company called "Digireel" was selling a digital projection system for pre-show ads that had a list price of $19,900.00.

Check out the Kodak DLP digital and slide projectors at:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/digital/av/

You shouldn't have to "kill" anyone to get projectors. If your theatre has the business, and you are willing to subject your audience to ads, there are companies that will pay you to run the ads.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-20-2000, 01:40 PM:

Please don't show ads!

But, if you must, at least do it right--get a pair of Kodak Ektagraphic projectors with the xenon modification (I believe that Strong--the Simplex/Century people--sells xenon-modified Ektagrphics) and get a dissolve control to provide smooth fades between slides, with no dark-screen interval between them.

The slide companies usually provide the projection equipment, but the brightness is often woefully inadequate for theatre-size screens. Off-the-shelf Ektagraphics are made for conference-room-size screens, not theatre-size ones...

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-20-2000, 01:54 PM:

In Connecticut, we use a company called "Promotion Slides." They are OK (they are not a pain, the ads are not too stupid, they "give" you a few to promote your own stuff.)

They use the ever popular Kodak carousel with 50 slides. I don't know what wattage bulb they use, but it creates an image that's bright enough if there are no screen wash lights. While they do sell control boxes to have two (or more) slide projectors alternate, we only use one projector. We did insist though, that they have a simple control box to fade out the lamp before advancing to the next slide- it looks a little nicer. We get about 3 weeks out of a bulb before it dies.

Or you could line up the advertisers yourself, but that is a lot of work. You'd also have to take pictures and/or do some graphic art to create the slides- not too hard, but very time consuming.

So, some outlined thoughts:

Adjusting the lighting in the auditorum to keep the screen dark. Of course, you can unscrew bulbs, but will that make the theater too dark for people to see comming in?

Cutting an extra port hole in the wall with it's own glass for the projector (will your building codes allow this?) If so, my suggestion is to put it at about the same height as the regular projector port window, so the slides are easy to get at and change. This depends on your booth layout, obviously.

You could just put it on a (very!) high shelf in the back of the theater. Be aware that kids can jump very high. We did it that way at one theater, (there was a 125ft throw and the slide projector lamp wasn't bright enough so we had to put it closer) and people got annoyed listening to the "click-kaclick" of changing slides. Also, (on a shelf) it's hard to get at to repair or change slides.

In either case, it needs an outlet. The outlet must be hooked up such that can be controlled by the projectionist to shut off when the feature starts. (Ours are hooked into the automation to go off/on automatically.) If the projector can be in the booth, it might be easy to hook up an outlet. If it's the back of the theater, you might need a electrician (or someone like him!)

Now, that said, is there anyway we can talk you out of putting slide projectors in? I hate 'em. But I must acknowlege that they can generate a lot of money.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-20-2000, 02:23 PM:

Well, our projectors are owned by NCN (National Cinema Network). NCN also sends us the quartely replacements for the trivia slide portion of the program. The advertising slides, along with bulbs, are handled by C&A Advertising our of Des Moines, Iowa. Their number is 1-800-SELLS-4-U.

My only advice to you is if you do put the projectors on shelfs inside the auditorium, as opposed to on the booth side of the wall, you might have problems with bulbs burning out at excessive rates due to the port glass blocking the cooling fan and creating a lot of heat in that space.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-20-2000, 02:49 PM:

Our slide ads are handled by Century Media. I like them because they send a guy out to change slides and I never have to touch them. Unfortunately they do screw up sometimes and some trivia questions have no answers, and some answers have no questions. And when both the question and the answer are there, they are about 5 or 6 slides apart, so you forget what the question even was. But at least I don't have to touch the slides.

They do provide projectors that at least fade out and back in between slides. Better than the normal slide projectors that just go black and then immediately back on with a different slide. Fade time is adjustable.

Posted by Sara Serine Orton (Member # 208) on 04-20-2000, 03:03 PM:

$19,000! AHHH!

I'm just doing this for my university. I will be run by little old me. I was just thinking about getting a Kodak carosel silde projector that runs itself. It's only on one screen (very small screen, seats only 180) I'm looking for new ways to bring in money for out campus movies. Do you think this would be a good idea? I'll just runs ads for oncampus stuff like the newspaper, campus outdoor rec ads, RHA Ads, that sort of thing. If I did this the what would I charge per ad? Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks everyone!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-20-2000, 03:11 PM:

I agree wholeheartedly with that Scott said. Please don't show ad slides...they take away a bit of that moviegoing experience.

However, if you must, then Scott's dual xenon dissolving setup is THE way to go. Alternatively, at least get you a TELEX model with fade in/fade out on each slide. There's nothing more tacky than the generic model Kodak that just pops in and out and in and in and in and in and in and in and in...damnit, I need to go repair that projector again! (No offense John, but the Kodak projectors I've used were brand new and were pathetically unreliable. Does Kodak have a higher quality level machine available that could be recommended to Sara? Preferably one with fading capabilities.)

On another note, stay away from putting the slide projector at waist level. First, if you put them on the operator side of the projector, the hot air will be constantly blasting you while you are threading and starting the show. That's just damn annoying. Second, if you mount it on a shelf on the non-operator side of the projector (typically the platter side), you will break your back every time you thread as you keep ramming yourself into that damn shelf! Believe me, I've logged no less than 10,000 hits myself. Also, when that lamp is on and you bump it, typically you will break the filament and have to get another bulb. So, place them up high. They don't have to be at the ceiling, but out of your way so you don't bump your head on the shelf. Just pull the carousel down when you need to change slides. Your day to day operatiors will thank you.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-20-2000, 03:20 PM:

Brad:

Check out the Kodak website URL I gave.

The EKTAPRO line is the professional level, and the 7020 and 9020 models have built-in dissolve.

Many of the slide avertising companies use the consumer version, which aren't designed for the abuse they get in theatre operation.

But even the stock EKTAPRO projectors haven't got enough light for really big images. So the metal-arc or xenon-arc modifications are recommended.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-20-2000, 03:26 PM:

Sara:

As others have noted, you can buy your own projector (check the Kodak website I gave), and make your own slides. For a small, one-screen university theatre like yours, I'm not sure you could get an advertising contract and a free projector. As others have said, pre-show ads are not the best of showmanship.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-20-2000, 03:38 PM:

One more quick comment--you can make your own slides pretty easily. I've had great success in making my own white-text-on-black slides using a standard 35mm camera and "Kodak Ektagraphic HC" film. This is basically the same material as the Kodalith graphic arts products.

The nice thing about this method is the simplicity and low cost--you create the artwork with black text on white background (using pen and ink, typewrither, laser printer, etc.) and then photograph it with a regular camera (preferably with a good copy stand setup). The film can be processed by hand in about fifteen minutes (you don't really need a darkroom if you have a changing bag or light-tight closet to load the film into the developing tank). Total cost is about $.50 per slide for film and chemistry plus about $.50 each for good-quality glass slide mounts.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2000, 06:19 PM:

I've always thought that slide ads are very tacky! I was at a locallex theater last week cause it was the only place in town to see Rear Window. The slide thing there really sucks and they have what they claim to be the Cineplex radio network or something. Anyway it was all in all very stupid. The funniest thing was that no one advertised and all that you saw was have your ad on this screen and some stupid trivia. I guess not too many local buisness people really care about having an ad on screen.
Mark

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-20-2000, 11:28 PM:

We must have the consumer version Kodak's because I have to agree with Brad. They are continuosly breaking down and burn through bulbs ever 4 to 15 days (when the bulbs should last at least 30). In comparision the two Telex models we have have not been sent in for repair once the entire year I have been 'Slide Manager.' Their bulbs also last upwards of 60 days. Considering you will be paying for the bulbs yourself if you don't contract an advertising company-and considering they cost $13 a piece-bulb longevitiy should be one of your main concerns.

As far as slide programs being tacky, I don't mind so much. Think of it like this, if there weren't slide and a reasonable amount of commercial trailers (not REASONABLE), the customer would be getting slammed at the box office and concession stand even more than they do already. The money for stadium seating, union operators, and all digital sound has to come from somewhere you know.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-21-2000, 05:10 AM:

John, I'll have to find out specifically what model projectors those were. If it's any hint as to the model number, they had no form of fading, were either brown or gray plastic cased, they had this habit of either sticking to the same slide for infinity *or* constantly cycled slides at an unstoppable rate, and they seemed about as sturdy as something from the Fisher Price plant...so you're probabaly right and they were consumer models. Some of them did have a "bright light" kit, which was just about as bright as the little bulbs in that kiddie game "bright light"...hence the name I guess.

Why oh why do some people cinch like that!?!?!? It's just like throwing money out the window in the long run. We never had more than 75% of the screens properly running at any given moment in time those damn things were breaking so fast.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-21-2000, 05:27 AM:

Ok, I've checked out the link John gave above and the units I used with all the problems are...(drumroll, please)............. The Kodak Ektagraphic III AMT! (crowd applauds)

Is this the consumer version? If so, why does the web site say (and I quote) "the workhorse of the AV industry" as well as "world-class slide projectors for presentation professionals" in the description on the web site? These slide projectors have one very major flaw in their design. If you pull the bottom cover off and watch during a slide change, you will see a little thin arm on a gear which grabs at a little metal plate to advance the slide. If this assembly gets even slightly worn or out of alignment for any reason, the gear will spin forever constantly advancing to the next slide! After a certain amount of use, the little metal plate will develop a lip on it and then you've really got some work to do to prevent the arm from catching! Sure these are quick to fix, but they just don't last more than a couple of weeks before the assembly works it's way out of alignment again. Top that off with those weird screws they are assembled with (forgive me for forgetting their proper name) and these machines are just one big pain in the butt. Certainly with all of the great minds at Kodak, SOMEONE there can fix this design flaw for future machines. (hint, hint)

I've had exactly zero problems ever with a TELEX projector. Never, nada, not one. If I had a gun to my head and was told "make one of those annoying slide programs for this theater", I would purchase a TELEX unit so I wouldn't have to deal with projector maintenance. (Sorry for the bad review John, but it's really the truth. Kodak makes a fantastic film, but they need some help in the projector category.)

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2000, 10:51 AM:

Kodak used to have a excellent machine made in germany called the SAE or SAV machine
We had several hundred of them for years here at ont place running multiimage slide shows and outside of lubing blowers there all metal construction was great
Regretably they all got sold as a job lot years ago

Posted by Chris Erwin (Member # 176) on 04-21-2000, 06:27 PM:

Sara,

If done right a slide presentation could be neat in your case. Use fades between slides. Get the art/photo people to make your slides, and give em' credit. (free slides and good PR for your theater)

If you were running a commerical for profit moive theater....NO SLIDES!! I love to hate going to my local mutli and seing these puke presentations of slides. Dim,dumb,and dull-but dollars!! The all-mighty dollar....

--Chris

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-21-2000, 06:50 PM:

We have the same model Kodak's Brad mentioned and every problem he mentioned as common in his experience is also in mine.

Posted by Carl Welles (Member # 59) on 04-21-2000, 07:04 PM:

Yes I too have used those machines before and they are a constant bitch to deal with. That model should be discontinued as it is destroying the Kodak name.

Posted by Mike Colley (Member # 327) on 04-21-2000, 08:15 PM:

Aren't those screws called Torx?

------------------
Mike Colley
Regal Cinemas
Hollywood 24
Atlanta, GA

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-22-2000, 03:15 PM:

We have two types of slide projectors, both made by Kodak. One is a "Medalist AT" and the other is a "Ektagraphic III A." I suspect they are pretty much the same. They use a EXY bulb which is 250 watts. The "EXY" is a standard "number" for these types of bulbs, and are avaiable from several companies (ours are from Osram.) They project an apx. 12ft by 12ft image about 50-60 feet away with an "OK" brightness (but there are no lights on or near the screen.)

I don't know if this is the same lens that came with the projector. Most of the lenses that come with slide projectors have a zoom feature to fit it to your screen. But, they are usually not meant for the larger size screens used in theaters. You should find out what lens will fit your theater before you buy.

As I said, we get about 3 weeks out of a bulb. That's from about 1.5 hours on Monday-Friday, 3.5 hours on Sat & Sun for a total of about 43.5 hours of bulb life. Note that the filliment in the bulb becomes very brittle after the first time it's lit, so it's very important not to move or jiggle the projector. Otherwise it will break, and have to be replaced. If you were thinking of setting the projector up, then removing it to store somewhere after each night, you will have to replace the bulb much more often.

There is a fader unit with our projectors. It is made by a company called, "Entré." It is a model "D100 Single Projector Fader / Dissolve." It plugs in the back of the projector.

Apx Prices:

From: http://www.cambridgeworld.com/projector_viewer.htm

I don't know if these people are good or what; I just wanted to get some idea of prices.

Kodak Ektagraphic IIIA $339.95
KODAK CAROUSEL MEDALIST $266.95
ENTRE DISSOLVE D100 $138.95

Maybe I'm the only one, but these projectors have worked OK for us. I find that, out of 10 new projectors, maybe one will develop problems shortly after use. Usually, the tray feeder jams up. Also, the socket for the bulb gets messed-up (from bulbs being changed so often.) Usually, with a little TLC you can get them running again. My suggestion is that if you buy one, turn it on right away and make it step through slides (with and without the bulb on) to find out right away if it's going to last. I mean, don't leave it on for a week constantly, but maybe for 5 hours one day, another 5 the next, so if it dies, it's within the warrenttee period.

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 04-22-2000, 06:07 PM:

The Kodak Ektagraphic slide projectors (at least the III-AMT model, anyway) come with the 300-watt EXR lamp as standard, a lamp with a 35-hour rated lifespan. Since the EXY is rated for 200 hours (IIRC), I think that's the reason for its use in projectors for slide advertising. I guess reduced lamp changing frequency is more important than image brightness.

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 04-24-2000, 12:44 PM:

Sara,
I own a three screen theatre and after much consideration, installed slide advertising. The boost to my gross income was incredible. I use Kodak projectors, I have a timer for them that shows the slide for 13 seconds, which research showed was the time needed to grasp the patron's attention. I use an FHS bulb, get about two weeks out of it, and make a nice profit. Any other theatre owners may agree that it all boils down to what it takes to keep a quality presentation, and pay the bills.
Email me if you would like detailed information on what I do here, it isn't hard to get up and running.
lance
oh, I have it tied into Gord Mcleod's automation and it is fool proof

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-24-2000, 02:58 PM:

Lance, do you have any focusing problems with your slides set to 13 second intervals? I was told never to set them higher than 10 seconds, or it will emboss the slides to the point when new ones are loaded, the older ones will project significantly out of focus. I've never personally tested it. I just set the timer to 9 seconds and forgot about it...but I'm curious as to the validity of that precise "10 second maximum" rule. Of course, even at 9 seconds, I still had focusing problems between the new and old. Perhaps that is just the "acceptable" point?

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 04-24-2000, 03:45 PM:

Brad,
No, I do not seem to have a focus problem. But, the throw is only in the area of 56 feet. I purchased these projectors from a firm that does screen advertising, but did not want to come into my market because of limited population. This company had done research on attention span( or so they told me) and sold me the timers based on the research. They claim that if it is shorter than 13 seconds the slide is not effective as an ad. I do change out the slides on a regular basis so that we have good quality ads on the screen.
Of course this company also told me to take the heat obsorbing glass out of the lamp unit if I wanted more light on the screen, which I didn't do. I have had these projectors for 4 years, had to replace one lamp holder which Kodak sent me right away, and that is the extent of the problems. Oh, and they are ektagraphic III's. I justify it that these babies allowed me to have Gord come down and install a Panestereo with DTS, And I never hear complaints about the ads, just good comments about the sound!!!
lance

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-24-2000, 04:31 PM:

Glad to hear you haven't had any problems...and kudos to you for actually taking some profit and putting it BACK into your presentation!!!

Very few people today seem to do that, Ian and Ky are the only exceptions that come to mind.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-24-2000, 08:31 PM:

I'd tend to think that any focus problems would be more of a result of the kind of slide mounts in use than of the duration that the slide sits in the gate, unless you have a xenon-modified Ektagraphic or something similar.

For this sort of application, you really need proper "glass mounts," which sandwich the slide between two thin pieces of glass in order to keep the film flat in spite of its natural tendency to curl with heat. Glass slide mounts are available from any decent camera store for about $.25-.50 each (usually in boxes of 25 or so).

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 04-25-2000, 07:38 AM:

My business has 25 Kodak Ektagraphic AMT machines, and 5 Kodak 4600's that I got for pennies at a school auction. They are used almost daily by knowing operators, and idiots. The only problems I ever have are lamps being installed wrong, the lens being installed wrong, or the carousel tray being broken because the operator tried to force it off of the unit.

The AMT units, for some reason, seem to be louder running than the 4600's. Must be a different fan assembly in the AMT's?

I use my 4600's at Biltmore Estate functions mostly. Their gatherings seem to be more upscale. The black housing on the 4600 vs.the grey housing on the AMT looks better with all my black stands, drapes, and equipment.

Our AMT's are 12 years old and only a couple have been opened for repairs--usually because of operator errors, or something being jammed into the fan. The lamp sockets are getting rough on a few of the machines. I have bright-light modules for most of them, but I really dont notice a big difference in the brightness.

Who knows how much use the 4600's have had? I got them because of the auto-slide focus feature that seems to work really well. They were nasty looking until I took a small brush to the slide changer area.

We use Apollo EXR lamps that are more inexpensive (cheaper) than GE's. I dont replace them very often, but I do always include a spare in the carrying case.

If the projetor jams, 9 times out of 10, it is a bad slide tray that is warped, or bent. I've never had the constant change problem that was mentioned above.

I like using the Ektagraphic, and 4600's. I dont love them, but I do like them.

I dont like the TORX screws. Who's idea was that? Trying to keep me out of it, I bet! (smiley face goes here)