Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Projector Brands

This is topic Projector Brands in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000891

Posted by Richard Quesnelle (Member # 391) on 04-20-2000, 03:18 PM:

Howdy Everyone!

I was wondering which projectors are most commonly seen in booths today (ie. both old and new styles).

Also if possible, what would be the going rate for buying either a new or used one (if still manufactured).

Thanks

Richard

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 04-20-2000, 04:58 PM:

I'm probably not the right person to answer this since you probably refer to American booths and I happen to live in Europe, but I will anyway since I feel like writing something on the forum tonight. Besides, I'm sure you're all dying to know what I'm going to tell you.

In Sweden, the Cinemeccanica Victoria 5 is more or less the norm these days, even though there are a lot of Kinoton machines around. Most flagship theatres here still have a pair of Philips DP70s (Norelco AA-II). My theatre, where we mostly run archive prints, uses a pair of Zeiss Favorit70 projectors, a Philips FP56, and a Bauer Selecton II for 16mm.

There used to be a lot of Ernemann and Bauer machines in the older booths, but most of these theatres are now gone. Also, the Swedish AGA Ultra used to be fairly common (but is not, anymore).

Strangely enough, I've never seen a Century or a Simplex in a Swedish booth, even though I understand they're quite common in the American booths. The only Century machines I've actually seen myself were old Cinemiracle machines, plus a cute little 35mm thing owned by a friend of mine.

As for buying a used 35mm projector, that depends. Around here it used to be fairly easy to get hold of an old Ernemann or a Bauer, for very little or no money, since the multiplex owners had a bunch of them in storage after all those theatres they closed down. They were of little use to them, yet they were reluctant to just throw them away.

When I worked for the local theatre chain, I asked for and got a 35/70mm Zeiss Favorit70 without having to pay anything. They had several of them after closing down some of the larger cinemas in the country. The technical manager hadn't had the heart to get rid of any of them. I guess I got mine because he thought I'd take good care of it.

So I guess my answer is, ask around where you work. You might get lucky. Or check the ads in the Equipment Wanted & For Sale forum.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-20-2000, 06:27 PM:

Well...

In most modern booths you will find:
35mm:

Simplex (XL, 1015, 1050)
Century (SA and related models)
Christie (GP35 and related)
Cinemeccanica
Norelco/Kinoton (FP20 and related models)

35/70mm:

Century (JJ)
Simplex (XL3570)
Norelco (AAII, DP75)

In most older theatres using the original equipment you will usually find:

Simplex (Super, E7, early model XL)
Century (C, H)
Brenkert (BX40,60,80,100)
Motiograph (AAA)

Aaron

Posted by Nicholas McRobert (Member # 205) on 04-20-2000, 06:32 PM:

Yep, Ari is right. Here in the UK, the biggest chain, Odeon, uses Cinemecannica machines and have recently started to install Kinoton FP40's in new sites. ABC Cinemas and UGC(UK)also use Kinotons circuit-wide. As far as I know, Warner-Village use Cinemeccanicas and possibly Simplex -- UCI and Showcase use Cinemecannica, however as with Odeon, there seems to be a growing trend towards changing to Kinotons. Generally, these chains also install equipment to "match" -- ie same brand of platter, automation, console, lamphouse etc. There are quite a few Century machines in use in a lot of independent theatres. Christie machines seem to be rarer, appearing in only a couple of theatres that I know of.

Nicholas

Posted by Michael West (Member # 428) on 04-20-2000, 10:29 PM:

if i see anouther simplex..., it used to be century with northern electric soundheads but now it is simplex 35s and the xls. for the rarely used 70mm we have the cinemeccanica - victoria 8

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-21-2000, 08:04 AM:

Cinemeccanica V8's were very popular overseas, especally in the UK. In 1968 or so, the American dollar was very strong in Italy, so many US theaters bought V8's.

I think today, people are tending to stay away from Cinemeccanica. They lost a patent-infringment lawsuit, (not related to motion-picture equipment) and either are- or are close to bankruptcy.

Personally, I really like V8' and V9's, but I have to admit replacement parts are very expensive, and they stopped making some others.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-21-2000, 08:45 AM:

I've always liked the V-8, they are extremely rugged projectors but I have never been happy with the 35mm lateral steadiness factor. The sound reproducer is novel as it doesn't contact the pix area of the film but it can be a pain in the a!! to set up. All Cinemecannicas seem to run 70mm alot better than they can run 35mm. They also seem a bit hard on film too. The trap plate seems to have been designed by someone that couldn't decide if he wanted to design a straight or curved one. Hard to believe they actually run 3 panel Cinerama in Bradford. There must be alot of changes to the gate to get it steady enough. I've heard that bankruptcy thing about both Prevost and Cinemecannicca several times over the years but I don't know if any of the storys are true.
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2000, 10:41 AM:

The newer shackemecanica gates are much better and the hollow sound drum is great to generate ongoing service calls when a splice or the tail piece drops in there and ripps out the cell
As scarry as it sounds mark about them building cinerama machines what is worse is that the actually built a horizontal 15 perf 70 machine to compete with Imax in conjunction with Ushio/xebex for a pavilion in Japan at one of the worlds fairs
It was not a sucess
The prevost issue of bakruptcy was mainly due from the estate splitting the assets as prevost also made cameras and invented the flatbed editor and the estate split each division up according to the info that filtered over here
What was cinemecanicas patent infringement over?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-21-2000, 11:39 AM:

Mark, I was laughing because I agree totally with everything you said, especally the about the gate/trap... it looks curved, but...! I think the gate/trap is what's hard on the film, everything else seems pretty good.

And the cell for the optical sound is a major pain. And Gordon, just last week a guy threaded a V8 wrong here and totally destroyed an optical cell. That's the third one since polyster became widespread.

Aligning the mag head is not easy either, since there are no adjustments at all. You kind of install it and hope it's good. We tried using the mag head that came with it, and it clogged so much we threw it away (with only 10-12 hours on it) and got a Teccon.

I was very unhappy with the tech support for Cinemeccanica. I never delt with the new guys in Californa, but I hear they are not so good. I did deal with the people in Flordia when it was there, and there was only one guy that knew anything, and he left. I got so annoyed, I called up Cinemeccanica of Canada and talked to a guy who was pretty good. He wasn't allowed sell anything, but gave me good advice.

Here's a link for the patent thing: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/775714/0000950148-98-000936.txt

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2000, 11:54 AM:

Cinecanica Canada?
what is that originally Cinemecanica USA was a venture of the principles of Canadian Odeon Theatres and Cinemecanica SPA
In canada it was distributed through General Sound (now gone) and Best Theatre Supply (also a sub of Canadian Odeon Theatres)
I don't know the status now

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2000, 11:59 AM:

Ari could you post some pictures of the AgaBaltic machines.
At one point Odeon theatres was thnking of bring them to canada but went with Cinemecanica instead
Also has anyone pictures of the perfectone machines

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-21-2000, 01:13 PM:

Gord, The lawsuit was supposedly over a camera dolly patent infringement. I saw a picture of the 15 perf 70mm machine someplace along time ago. It musta shredded film like a veg-o-matic! Man what a huge sprocket. Even with 8 pef its bad enough unless you have a VKF 32 tooth intermittent sprocket. That actually eliminates any film damage running 8 pef. I'm not so sure that it would help 15 perf 70mm though running with a regular pulldown. Perhaps a double movement thingy like the Megasystem machine would work though. If done right it could even be pin registered.
Hey........ thats a great idea for my next projector project! We are looking for some way to run 15 perf 70mm in the park reasonably!
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2000, 01:55 PM:

The machine did more than shed I think it was closer to shred
I wouldn't waste time on a 15/70mm machine with a movement.
I think the ideal solution would be a contious motion machine basically a scaled up version of the machau arcadia projector that Leitz built in the 20's
I have been searching for one of these machines for years. I do know that some were converted to sound
Perfectone makes a machine that is similar
I have yet to se a v8 in 8 perf

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-21-2000, 02:27 PM:

I'm sorry. Cinemeccanica of Canada was not the real name. The real name (this was 17 years ago) was Cinemeccanica of North America. The guy I there I talked to was (I'm sure I'm not spelling his name right) Rant Hindian.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2000, 08:25 PM:

That would have been the Montreal office of Best theatre Supply
In the seventies every odeon was cinemecanica

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-21-2000, 11:25 PM:

I received this bit of information after (all of us) started talking about Cinemeccanica. I didn't realize that Cinemeccanica had several different divisions, and (wrongly) sort of lumped them together.

-----------------

Hi,

I read your post on Cinemeccanica's going out of business...I don't think so... Cinemeccanica has several divisions; the production division manufactures dollies (which the patent infringment came from) film
editing equipment et cetera. The company is privately held with the 3rd generation planning for digital cinema, whenever it happens. Their projector production is almost at sold out level for the next two years
thanks to customers such as Warners International, U.C.I./Paramount and myself (a $6,000,000 distributor). Prevost was in bankruptcy a few years ago due to losing the Zeiss distribution network but the son has brought it back to life.
Cinemeccanica wisely did not greatly expand their facilities like Strong did during the American building spree (now dead); that is why Strong is in deep trouble.

(and)

2 1/2 years ago Cinemeccanica came up with a new sound drum which fully covers the sound drum (with a slot for the reverse scan LEDs)
the center covered area is recessed so as not to touch the image area; designed for mylar stock... I have over 130 units in operation and we are converting 14 more cinemas next month. It is an easy retrofit, and if you have the factory spanner wrench, should take about 1 1/2 hours to install.

New item introduced this month - D.C. pulse ignitor for their lamphouses and consoles to replace the IREM AS series units they have been using.

Richard Fowler
TVP-Miami www.tvpmiami.com

------------------------

I am glad Cinemeccanica is doing OK, because I really like the design. I do wish they still made V9's though. And, I really like the idea of the new sound drum... I'm going to ask our tech guy if we can get one.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-22-2000, 12:07 AM:

Richard, come on and join us on the forum! Just click on the FAQ for directions for signing up.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 04-24-2000, 12:48 PM:

Gordon,

I do have some nice AGA pics, so I'll scan them and email them to Brad. That OK with you, Brad?

The AGA was the first machine I ever threaded, actually, so I really like them. They're really beautiful, too, very well designed. They were installed pretty much everywhere in Sweden after WWII, but they eventually lost ground to the Philips FP5, Ernemann VIII and others.

As for Cinemeccanica, we've nicknamed the Victoria 5 "Cinemeccano" since most of the projectionists around here regard it as something of a toy projector. It certainly feels like one, when used to a Philips DP70 or a Favorit70. On the other hand, when cared for properly, it is not a bad projector, it just feels like one.

At the local multiplex, they've had some trouble with misaligned (and wrongly manufactured) gates, resulting in bad focus. Is this anything any of you recognise?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-24-2000, 02:59 PM:

Send them on.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-24-2000, 05:33 PM:

Hey Ari,
Are those AGA machines chain drive in an oil bath? I remember seeing pictures of the insides of one a long time ago.
Mark

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-24-2000, 07:16 PM:

Ari;

I thought the same thing about Victoria 5's. One day, we put a Xetron 3000 watt lamp on to a V5. That night, while it was running, I was talking to someone and leaned on the back of the lamp. The entire projector tilted up! I ended up bolting the thing to the floor (there are holes in the pedesal for that.)

It lasted much longer than I expected (we took it out to put in 70mm.) But, I miss the V9's. If they wanted a cheaper machine, they should have stuck with V9's.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 04-25-2000, 09:07 AM:

Mark,

To be honest with you, I don't know for sure. My recollection is that they aren't; they look like a Philips FP5 inside. But when I get around to scanning and emailing the AGA pictures I have, see if you can figure it out. I can't - I don't have that kind of detail visible in them.

I learned the craft and art of film projection with AGA projectors, but I was never given the chance to study them inside except when the local tech was there.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 04-25-2000, 04:09 PM:

Every Victoria 5 I've ever threaded has been firmly bolted to the floor. If they hadn't, half of them would probably have tilted within the first few months of their lives. They're pretty lightweight.

The pair of V8's I saw at the Colosseum in Oslo seemed a lot heavier and sturdier. The projectionist there had some nice things to say about them, too.

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 04-25-2000, 04:16 PM:

The vic8 will be the best projector cinemeccanica EVER made, do they still make it? i think so. Sorry to say it, but the vic5 are not worth much

------------------
It's the new small talk. You do it so awfully well! - My Fair Lady

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-25-2000, 06:56 PM:

What's an AGA projector? I've never heard of such a beast.

As it is, Cinemeccanica machines are rara avis in the US. Simplex and Century seem to dominate, with the odd mix of Norelco, Cinemeccanica, Kinoton, and maybe a few others filling in the gaps. For 16mm, Hortson, Norelco, Eastman (model 25), Eiki, and Elmo seem to dominate with respect to theatre-size xenon or arc machines.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 04-27-2000, 03:16 AM:

What is used in Australia? Most popular today would be Kinoton FP 50,FP 30 and Cinemeccanica Vic 5. There are also plenty of Christie, Century, Bauer U3, Vic 8, DP70, DP 75, Simplex Strong.

Back a few years there were plenty of Super Standards, Cummings and Wilson, (both Australian) Kalee, Centrex, etc.

Most automation is Pennywise CA 100 and CA 21. Platters are mostly Speco, Christie, Kinoton.

Shakameccanica is the word, they also shed poly film and churn through shutter gearboxes, otherwise good. Kinoton have a great image on screen but the new aperture set-up is fragile and hard to get right. Christie cause major shedding and are easy to work on - they need to be, everything breaks from Ultramittants to damper struts. Clever construction and great lamphouse consols.

David

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 04-27-2000, 06:01 AM:

Scott,

An AGA projector is (was) a Swedish-made post-war modernity. Well, actually I think AGA started making them before the war, but they didn't become popular until after the war ended. AGA projectors were installed in a lot of booths around the country for a while, but I doubt they ever spread anywhere outside Scandinavia. I know that some were installed in Finland and Norway.

The machines themselves were characteristically dark red and elegantly designed. Later models featured 4-channel mag readers and the AGA version of CinemaScope, called AGASCOPE (what else, huh?). In the eighties, many of the remaining AGAs were converted to Dolby Stereo with generally good results. AFAIK, a few of these are still in place.

I started my projectionist career by learning to thread a pair of the "beasts" for a few weeks and really liked them. The reels were small (600 meters) so it didn't take me long to learn how to do a proper changeover.

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 04-29-2000, 04:35 AM:

The AGA is a reliable, and really beatyfully designed projector. As far as I know AB Gas Accumulator stopped making them after a negotiated deal with the Phillips Company. Phillips sold it's technical gas dept. to AGA, and Aga went selling Phillips projectors. Ari is right, they were hardly known outside of northern Europe, even though the quality of projector and sound systems were simelar to the Siemens brands (Bauer/Klangfilm).