This is topic surround EX in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Frank Rapisardi (Member # 435) on 04-25-2000, 07:20 AM:
Is this really worth investing in or is it just another way to force us into spending vast sums of money.I haven't heard it yet.National Amusements uses it in their bigger houses.How will it work in a smaller house? Thanks Frank------------------
Posted by Bryan Redemske (Member # 354) on 04-25-2000, 08:25 AM:
we have it in two of our auditoriums. to be honest, i didn't notice it that much during Star Wars Ep. I. only a couple of movies have been in EX since then, so i really don't think it's that big of a deal. maybe with the newer technologies coming around, it'll make a big difference, but....you could probably do without.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-25-2000, 08:40 AM:
Personally, I think the money might be better spent somewhere else. How much do they cost, about $2500 or so? Adding in the labor to rewire the surround speakers, (depending on how they were done at first) and a new amplifier) two of them would almost be a DTS unit, which I would rather have.I guess if everything else is up-to-date in your theater, I'd say sure, but otherwise....
Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 04-25-2000, 09:01 AM:
The ownership bought one about a year ago and I'm still unimpressed. We had some problems with ours concerning its boot-up capabilities as well. The manager would turn of the EX when the film running in that auditorium was not compatible with the unit (mostly everything), and when we turned it back on, it would not work. I need three new automation/dimmer systems, dry-web media cleaners, better quality 2k bulbs, and many other nessessities, but I got EX (wooooo!).
I refused to work on the system because of my other needs, so the answers to many of our questions remain unanswered. AND IN THIS CASE I DON'T CARE! EX was just a rip off to get more people into see a mediocre science fiction picture. I got more important things to worry about. So do I think you need an EX unit? HELL NO!
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-25-2000, 11:13 AM:
I think its pretty good if properly installed. I put two in a theater we did just in time for Toy Story. That soundtrack was very impressive to hear in standard SRD, but the addition of EX on that film did make a big difference. The nice thing is that now the Dolby SA-10 EX adaptor has auto sense for EX encoded films. I perfer to stay with only Dolby products on any installs I do for our customers. Their products do represent more value for the dollar than other products do and you have the benefit or real type A and SR noise reduction over some one elses make believe noise reduction. Having the correct noise reduction in your processor is more important than almost any other aspect it performs.
I would say that 2500.00 extra would be the average to expect for EX at install.
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-25-2000, 05:15 PM:
My feeling is that Surround EX is probably the worst "bang for the buck" out there. One has to spend a substantial amount of money to get the adapter, amplifier channels and possibly speakers (the rear wall is often under speakered for EX since the rear wall must be able to to play 103dBc in the middle of the auditorium). Then there is the added labor of installing the system. All of this for what? One channel. A derrived channel at that. I'm also not to wowwed about the implementation of some unit (very poor logic interfaces).
I view Surround-EX as the icing on the cake...just make sure you have a pretty good cake first.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-25-2000, 06:38 PM:
The SA-10 now has auto-sense? How is this achieved? Does one need a newer SA-10? This was a serious flaw in the original unit.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-25-2000, 06:47 PM:
Agreed to all the other comments here. There's nothing really "wrong" with EX when used with EX-encoded prints (how many films are mixed for EX now?), but $2500 (plus amps, plus wiring) is an awful lot of money to spend for something that doesn't make a huge difference in the overall presentation.
If the rest of your sound system is composed of top-of-the-line everything, then go ahead and install EX. Otherwise, put the cash into better lenses, amps, speakers, etc. that will make a much bigger difference in presentation quality.
Personally, I'll take a good, clean high-end mono system over a cheesy Dolby-clone (Kintek, etc.) system any day.
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 04-25-2000, 07:52 PM:
Surround EX is a joke. You'd just be pissing away money that could certainly be used elsewhere for a better purpose.
Posted by Dwayne Caldwell (Member # 417) on 04-25-2000, 08:11 PM:
I don't know. There's something about having a channel of sound shot towards the back of your head that just doesn't seem like it'd be very effective. I could be wrong though. Maybe there's some other realm of physics I'm just not understanding here. ------------------
The man with the magic hands.
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 04-26-2000, 12:52 AM:
The real problem is that most auditoriums these days are NOT build for proper acoustics. So adding endless amounts of sound channels will do nothing but further distort what you hear. If the acoustics are crap, then fewer channels and speakers are better. In my DTS auditorium, it was designed for killer acoustics. When buzz lightyear flies by, you hear him move across the theater, and you cant tell just what speaker it came from. And we are just a simple SMART and DTS system. Building design is paramount!------------------
"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"
Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 04-26-2000, 09:40 AM:
Dave... what's your theatre and which is your killer, DTS auditorium? I want to see movies there!
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 04-26-2000, 02:22 PM:
The one in reference to killer acoustics would be theater number 2 at the Starship theatres in Sandy, Utah. We mix the sound for EACH feature we get in there. Films like, The Matrix, The Crow (last saturday), even SWEP1 sounded like you were in the movie itself, and we never go over 85db. Its all how you equalize it baby! That and speaker placement in relation to building design and patron placement. Right now we are considering a remodel, as our lease is about up. If we renew we are going to remodel and probably make some slight alterations to the interiors. Place is like a war zone right now, just trying to make it alive with all the competition near by.------------------
"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-26-2000, 02:25 PM:
Dave,
Actually very good acoustics are quite easy to obtain in almost any auditorium if proper acoustical treatment is done when the place is built, or even added afterwards. Typically in a 300 or so seat room 2" on the side walls and 3 to 4" on the rear wall will allow a room to meet THX specs easily and usually surpass it. I've been through many projects that had acoustic treatment done either when building or added later. Many older theaters can meet standard sound decay and reverb specs for a given room with some added treatment, usually in the form of premade panels, on the side, and back walls.
The harder area is HVAC noise. To meet even NC-30 is difficult thing for most HVAC contractors I've worked with. NC 20 to 25 is the preferred level. NC30 is just audible in a large room. If you can get to NC 20 you can hear the blood flowing in your ears! Thats quiet! Not many theaters can meet that low of a spec, only a few.
The real art in designing an auditorium is correct placement, quantity, number of surround speakers, proper selection of stage speakers, and amplifier power. Also utilizing a full baffle or at least baffelettes for screen channels is also important. I've seen to many rooms that are underspeakered, under powered, and improperly wired.
We are in the process of changing out 14 of 17 screens at a large theater here in SLC. In that theater, which is brand new, the HF horns are mounted 3 feet back from the screen suface. Man thats not even close! And they cannot be moved closer without major modifications. Realistically, they should be almost right up to the back of the screen. You can just imagine how much of the sound is reflected by the screen and is absorbed by the rear wall acoustical treatment in this place. Quite frankly there is no excuse for this sort of sloppy work in a new facility that has state of the art equipment. Anyway, sorry to write a book on this but it really isn't difficult at all.
Mark
P.S. Doing a B chain re-eq for each film is definately not the correct way to present a film. Eq'ing to proper ISO standards is the only way in this industry. If you don't go by standards then don't expect to be able to make an accurate judgement of a sound track! Its that cut and dry. However, if the mix down engineers for a given film happen by your theater they would be THE ONLY ones to consult on any eq changes. Other wise ISO curves should be strictly adhered to the same way they are in dubbing stages all over the world. Frankly, if a film has a bad track you can't make it good, and if a track is good it'll sound that way.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-26-2000, 02:35 PM:
Toy Story 2 sounded awesome in EX because it had an awesome mix. That's some referrence sound material there. I like to use the opening sequence to audibly check how certain auditoriums sound. You should get earth-shaking sub, lots of left, center, and right action. And of course the surrounds sound great whether you are playing it in EX or not. I do notice during that opening sequence, once when buzz flies by, it sounds like maybe a little bit of static in the left surround channel, but it is just a really quick effect, since all auditoriums do it. It doesn't sound bad, but people like me who listen specifically for that type of stuff could be thrown off for a second.Overall, I like EX. Hell, it didn't come out of MY wallet! When you have it set up correctly, it sounds pretty good. It really does make a huge difference if it is set up correctly.
Toy Story 2 is still the referrence EX movie, all others seem limp so far.
Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 04-26-2000, 02:44 PM:
Mark, keep up with the long posts! i enjoy reading how you pro's do it! just to say something about the subject- Toy story 2 was great in EX! 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-26-2000, 02:51 PM:
I definately agree Joe. EX is really pretty good when done right. Whats another 2500.00 when the typical booth tab is at least 50 grand these days anyway.........Why not do it right the first time if you have a chance. As far as Toy Story goes its A great refrence track weather run in EX or not.
Mark
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 04-27-2000, 03:20 PM:
Mark,Let me rephrase what it is we do when we re EQ for each feature. We actually NEVER touch the EQ itself, its just a way I refer to it. What we do is adjust levels for the high frequency in relation to the low frequency outputs. We have them separated and sent to different horns for each channel. it allows us to make minor adjustments to allow for bad mixes by sound engineers. Every sound engineer has thier own preference on sound, and much of comes from I think poor or damaged hearing. I personally am sensitive to all auditory ranges and can hear even the slightest twinges and distortions, but could never mix sound because I am not sure from what range it came from. If I hear humming, i turn down the low frequency horns, If my ear drums start hurting, I turn down the high frequency horns. after we get the sound to not hurt my ears, we adjust the volume to 85db and leave it.
But you are correct on the actual EQ settings. I have those locked up and are only touched by my sound tech himself. I really need to work on my terminology, after all I get on my own people about that same problem and here I go doing the same thing.
Dave
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"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-27-2000, 04:55 PM:
Dave,
Ha, What the heck??
I suspect that you may have poor,mismatched, or improperly installed equipment if you have to do that every time. Still using the ISO curve is the proper way to do things. Remember....you can't make a bad mix sound good........No matter what. I have not heard a really awful mix in years.
Mark
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 04-28-2000, 12:51 AM:
Mark,Yes to all of the above. The idiot that installed all of the equipment is just that, an idiot. I will not give his name as he seems to do a lot of these installs (works for a local sound company).
I agree that we shouldn't have to fiddle with the levels ever, but unfortunately it is the way it is. Partly because the equipment was never installed properly, and partly because the owner installed this equipment because it was pulled from another theater that closed up in denver. When it was purchased there, it was NOT top of the line equipment, but was purchased for the lowest he could get it, just so he could say it was DTS!!! YAHOO!!!!
Personally I am tired of dealing with it! I had it perfect ONCE, but a former employee was given access by a NOW former employee on one of my days off. He destroyed all of the settings. My sound guy wont redo the settings unless he is paid in advance, as the last time he did it our accounts payable took three and a half months to cut him a check.
When its on, it rocks! It was on when we had SWEP1, then it got screwed with. I did what I could but we wont pay for a redo because we are cheap %#$%@#$%%@%!!!!!!
And in all reality, today was my last day folks. I no longer work for this company. Not sure what I am going to do next, to be honest I have had it working for companies that have no intention of going anywhere. Talk is cheap, and so are the people I keep working for.
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"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-28-2000, 03:52 AM:
You haven't heard an awful mix in years? Please explain the following mixes:The Mummy
The Messenger
Armegeddon
or any Jerry Bruckheimer flick.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-28-2000, 05:21 AM:
Ick! Damn you Joe. You just HAD to bring up that HORRIBLE memory of the sound mix in "The Mummy", didn't you!!! Worst sound mix of all time I say. I hope I never run another film mixed by whoever that guy was! It was an embarassment to the sound system. Unfortunately my idea of "buy a large popcorn and get a free pair of earplugs for watching The Mummy" didn't go over well with the concession people. It would've been a HUGE boost to the concession sales once that first reel started.The Messenger was pretty bad too (but not quite Mummy status). The Bruckheimer flicks "can" sound quite damn good, but boy do those frequencies between 2K-8K have to be S M O O T H for it to sound good. Otherwise it's screech city.
Mark, in defense of Dave here, if you have seen The Mummy I think you will agree what he did was virtually a requirement for the run of that particular flick. Every operator I knew at the time who ran that film did similar things to the eq for that one show (and then of course put the dials back to where they were originally for the next film). Thank God for Dolby's course bass/treble controls which allow for such an emergency change, while preserving the actual tweeking of each dial once those 2 controls are reset to their original postions! When will Ultra stereo and others learn?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-28-2000, 10:18 AM:
Brad,
I definately DID NOT see The Mummy. Still tinkering with eq is a no no for the most part. That is unless you have the resorces to return it to its proper settings. And like I've said three times here, ya can't make a bad mix sound good. Dave,
If things are really that bad(and they have always been that way according to several sources I know)you should find a better chain to work for and not let your knowledge go to waste. There are good theaters with good equipment to do work for here in SLC. Give me a call.
Mark
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-28-2000, 02:19 PM:
Well, on mixes like "The Mummy" you are in one sense correct and in one sense not. I wouldn't say altering the eq can make this movie sound "good", BUT you CAN make that track sound "acceptable" with a bit of eqing. So long as ONLY something like the course bass/treble controls are moved (and their location exactly marked beforehand), this will not damage the original B-chain when returned for the next show. Altering individual 1/3 octave pots without a multiplexer, RTA and a good amount of knowledge and experience would defintely be a bad idea though.
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 04-29-2000, 01:20 PM:
You are correct Mark, things are bad here, always have been. All of my efforts have been for not and a total waste of time. I tell you if the owner fails to renew the lease here, and the whole planet knows he will (he still wont admit it to himself), I would love to renew the lease myself and get this place back up to par. This particular theater is as close to historical landmark as you are going to get anymore, what with all of the theaters going out of business and getting torn up and out, it would be a shame to see this place die as well, well not with its current ownership.And get this, the current ownership wants to hire me to take over promotions and oversee operations in two theaters! This after laying me off! Personally I hate the rat race, and this place is run by the rats!
Mark, I will give you a call on Monday, in fact I may even be out and about and just drop in!
Dave
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"If it's not worth doing, I have allready been there and done it"