Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Problems manufacturers should be aware of

This is topic Problems manufacturers should be aware of in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-05-2000, 02:39 PM:

Since most the manufacturers lurk here ready to be bashed I think it would be helpfull if we started a topic of likes and dislikes so they can come up with solutions or atleast explain why the problem is as it is
To make it easier for them lets have a seperate topic for each manufacturer rather than this thread getting a confusing list and in a spirit of professionalism I humbbly sugest that there be no posts of just it suck or I don't like it that are not followed with a detailed explanation

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 05-06-2000, 06:08 AM:

Gordon and others,

I agree with your idea. I for one am willing to be bashed if necessary as long as I can at least attempt to explain, clarify, justify, rationalize, or perhaps even solve your problem. I do NOT promise to be able to please everyone. That would be impossible.

My opinion regarding the audio equipment manufacturers is that for the most part we all make pretty good equipment. None of us is perfect, and we all make our mistakes from time to time. And I know that each manufacturer has its loyal following.

But we all have our equipment running day in and day out in many thousands of theatres and for the most part it works regardless of who made it.

Assuming you are otherwise happy in general with the product and its performance, what counts next is how we respond when there is a problem. So if I can help by responding here in this forum when someone is unhappy, doesn't like, or has a problem with SMART equipment, I will be glad to do so.

Again, let me emphasize that I know I can't please everyone all the time or even some of the time. But I will do my best to honestly answer questions and help in any way I can and in as timely a manner as I can consistent with getting all my other work done.

Ultimately, I believe we all want to produce the best presentations we can possibly have, and to that end, let's all help.

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Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-06-2000, 08:40 AM:

Hi, Oscar! Welcome to the forum.

Oscar and crew have always given outstanding service advice on their equipment. And let me tell you, they bend over backward to help!

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Better Projection Pays!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-06-2000, 02:50 PM:

Well I am not ready to bash any SMART products yet since I have never tested any. This is one of the reasons I do reviews on the site. Of course anybody can respond and challenge or support my reviews here on the forum (Gordon does not like my CIR splicer review). In fact, it is encouraged. The new reviews should be up on Monday, by the way.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-06-2000, 09:14 PM:

I have had great reliability with all the Smart products I have sold over the years.....after the SR300 processor.
All the Mod 2's I installed are still going along without a quirk. It is really hard to beat it for the buck.
Mark

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-06-2000, 10:23 PM:

A friend of mine has the Smart speaker phase checker. Loves it.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 05-07-2000, 08:01 AM:

Hi everybody;
I'll be here on behalf of Strong. Contructive Interchange is encouraged and we'll do what we can...
Look forward to seeing what's to be said and thanks for your input.

Pat

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2000, 02:51 PM:

Actually Pat,
I have to commend all you guys at Strong. Things have really gotten better there, especially in the parts dept from what it was 10 years ago. Also, everyone I talk to there is quite knowledgable, and if they can not help you they don't try to BS their way through the conversation like some companies do, they seek someone out in the factory that can help. The equipment also seems better QC'd and I have really had almost 0 problems with any equipment we have sold/ installed in the last couple of years.
Mark

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 05-07-2000, 07:50 PM:

Thanks, Mark. We do work on it and it's a never ending project. Our Customer Service people make it go, they are just the best. QC is a high priority on equipment we ship. Room for improvement always but we're working hard at it.

Pat

Posted by Curtis Barnes (Member # 471) on 05-07-2000, 09:07 PM:

How about Christie and their horrible projector? I mean seriously, the thing is a piece of CRAP! What are my problems? Too much vibration, the intermittent cannot run a steady picture, and these Dolby Digital readers included on these projectors are the worst thing I have ever seen. We can't get them to work reliably no matter what we do! Surely Christie is aware of this. But I haven't seen them on this site talking about these problems or anything else. Also, why hasn't there been a review on this projector in the reviews section yet? I would love to see that.

Speaking from my own experience, Christie projectors should never ever be purchased for any reason.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-08-2000, 06:51 AM:

Actually, the older Christie projetors are very good. The P35 that has the shutter gear box was far better than the P35GP. No soundhead problems,no wow, no flutter. Mine still has the original Ultramittant in it. Supposedly the shutter gear boxes in this version used to go out once in a while, but surely not as often as the shutter drive belt.
Mark

Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 05-08-2000, 09:39 AM:

Sure, Gordon, sounds good to me. I think you all know by now that we are always anxious to hear from the trenches. This is the way we learn about those things which irritate people or which we never thought of.

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Bill Purdy
Comonent Engineering

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-08-2000, 12:37 PM:

I've been here since last summer (over 350 posts ago), and enjoyed every minute of it (really!)

Perfection is the goal. Imperfection is an opportunity for learning, improvement, and shared support. Let's all make film and film presentation as perfect as we know it can be!

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Chris Rhode (Member # 448) on 05-08-2000, 05:32 PM:

Pat I have a question for you.

My theater runs 24 Simplex 35 PR2000 projectors. When I went to look at the film path, I noticed that you only have one studio guide but yet there is another set of holes to put another one in on the opposite side. When my cues run through the film gate, it causes a jump in the picture because of the absence of the other studio guide. Why did you make holes for another one but fail to put one in there? Are you planning to put one in or are you just going to leave it the way it is?

Other than that everything else works fine!! Even though the PR2000 is the first projector I have ever worked with, it sure seems nice and sturdy to work with!

------------------
Chris Rhode

chrisrhode@hotmail.com

My reputation preceeds me..... in fact, it arrived about 45 years ago!

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 05-08-2000, 08:05 PM:

Chris; There is one "studio" guide on the Millennium on the soundtrack (reference) side of the film. The Lateral Guide Roller Assembly above the aperture is fixed on one side and spring-loaded on the other. A fixed guide on the non-soundtrack side doesn't do much good. The splice appears to jump because of the change in film thickness. A guide on the other side wouldn't change that.
Thanks for the input and continued good luck.

Pat

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2000, 08:27 PM:

If the jump is horizontal, are your splicers trimming the tape flush with the edges of the film...particularly the soundtrack edge?

Posted by Chris Rhode (Member # 448) on 05-09-2000, 07:52 AM:

The film splices run fine. My problem is with the cue tape that we put on the s-side of the film. We use the type of cue dector that we have to put the long strip of tape on the outside edge of the film (covering the sdds track). As it passes through the film gate, the picture projected on the screen jumps horizontally to the left and then jumps back into place. I was wondering if you were to place another studio guide on the opposite side (where you have the holes pre-drilled) why wouldn't that fix that problem??

------------------
Chris Rhode

chrisrhode@hotmail.com

My reputation preceeds me..... in fact, it arrived about 45 years ago!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-09-2000, 09:22 AM:

No, you cannot add another guide. Can you have your tech swap the wires so you put cues on the picture edge instead? That would solve the problem.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-09-2000, 09:41 AM:

Chris:

As Pat Moore noted, the projector positions the film laterally using the "reference edge" of the print (analog soundtrack side). The lateral edge guiding in the projector is provided by the fixed guide roller and/or the outboard "studio guide" rail (they can interact, depending upon how they are aligned). The inboard spring-loaded guide roller "pushes" the film against the fixed roller/guides to position the film laterally. The inboard studio guide rail (if used) should NOT be set up to "pinch" the film into position.

You are putting cue tape on the outboard (reference) edge of the print. Since this is the guided edge of the print, the film jumps laterally as the tape goes through the projector gate. The projector is doing its job correctly --- the cue tape overhanging the edge is the likely problem. Using a fixed inboard "studio guide" to pinch the film into position would not solve the jump problem, and would likely catch on the added width of the tape or any splices.

If you don't "wrap" the tape around the edge of the film, and trim any overhang carefully, you should find much less sidewise jump.

BTW, the intermittent sprocket should ideally NOT provide any lateral guiding via the perforations. The film should be aligned so the sprocket teeth are centered on the perforations. This applies to both the old style "narrow tooth" CS sprockets, and the "Very Kind to Film" VKF sprockets that are most commonly used today.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2000, 02:01 PM:

John,
I always liked the Posi-Trol sprockets that LaVezzi used to make. They really cleaned up the side slop on older machines. I used them in several pairs of dailies projectors and WOW! It bumped the already tight image jump and weave up another couple of notches. As far as I know though they discontinued them.
Mark

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-09-2000, 02:21 PM:

I like the LaVezzi "Posi-Trol" sprockets too. Glenn Berggren suggested them for a pair of Century projectors we have in a screening room, and I agree: WOW! SMPTE 35-PA (RP40)looks as steady as a still image slide!

But because the teeth on one side are effectively "full fitting" widthwise, care is needed to be sure the gate alignment is "perfect", or else the sprocket teeth "fight" the edge guides for control of the film's lateral position.

I'm sorry to hear that LaVezzi may have discontinued them. They were great if you knew how to set up the alignment perfectly.

BTW, I hope no one is still using narrow CS-tooth sprockets anymore, unless they need to show an old 35mm mag-striped print. Those sharp 0.040 inch wide teeth were tough on perforations.

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 05-09-2000, 02:21 PM:

Just a thought...

Rather than continually extending this topic which could get to be QUITE long over time, maybe we should post individual topics with the manufacturer's name as the first item in the topic title. This would make it much easier to spot for whoever needs to answer the question or concern or problem.

Some examples:
SMART: automation not shutting down at end of show

SMART: Need hookup info for DA20 to MOD V

DTS: Out of sync sound

STRONG: picture jumping at cue tape

Anyway, you get the idea.

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2000, 09:54 PM:

John,
You can take the studio guides out of most Centurys and throw them away. In most cases you will actually have a steadier image as the film does not fight between the two guides. Installing Positrol sprockets guarantees absolute side steadiness. There is a similarity between these sprockets and pin register camera movements in that one tooth,or reg pin in a camera fits the full width of a perf. I have also removed just the outboard guide in alot of cases but then operators ask the same question that was posted about the Simplex yesterday. "How come only one guide?" When you think about it the outer guide is just there for looks. Its only other purpose is to use it to set the depth of the curved gate runer when its in the closed position after reinstalling the gate closer assy. If you look at the Century trap alignment gauge the fixed end of the lateral guide roller is slightly off set towards the inside if the machine and the spring loaded side does the guiding along with the inboard studio guide....if you choose to use it.
They are alot easier to keep clean without the guides too.
Mark

Posted by Chris Rhode (Member # 448) on 05-09-2000, 10:35 PM:

John,

What you just said makes perfect sense. I don't understand why I didn't figure that out. I will try and cut the cue tape in half because the tape that we use is made to wrap around the side where you place the tape on. I don't know why they decided to do this if it causes this problem. What would be the best way to cut the tape in half evenly?? The only way I can think of is to use a razor blade and cut VERY CAREFULLY down the middle of the tape.

Thank you for making this clear. But I still have one last question, if you don't put a guide on the other side of the gate, then why pre-drill the holes. Is it for the consumer in case they decide to move the guide over to the opposite side??

Thanks for helping me out everybody!! I've learned more in the past 2 weeks from visiting this website daily than I have learned from working in projection for the past 8 months!!!

------------------
Chris Rhode

chrisrhode@hotmail.com

My reputation preceeds me..... in fact, it arrived about 45 years ago!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-09-2000, 11:32 PM:

First, if you do NOT have Dolby digital in your theater, don't cut the tape in half or wrap it around at all. Just lay it on the emulsion side to cover the SDDS track (as before) as well as the perforations. Then punch out the perforations with your splicer.

If you DO have Dolby digital, place the cue tape over the SDDS track (as before), but instead of wrapping it around the edge, take a good pair of scissors and with them pressed up against the edge of the film, simply trim off the excess.

Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 05-10-2000, 09:19 AM:

Chris, forgive the shameless plug, but if you will replace that old cue detector with one of our FM-35's your troubles will be solved. Our typical cue is only 1/4" square. For more please go to www.componentengineering.com/nffm35.html and/or www.componentengineering.com/fm-3537instr.pdf

Posted by Chris Rhode (Member # 448) on 05-10-2000, 12:41 PM:

I'll try that tomorrow when I get this week's set of movies to build up.

Bill, my theater is not going to spend the money to buy 24 new cue detectors just to eliminate that little jump in the picture. If I had it my way, I would get rid of 80% of the crap that we use, but since my theater is already 125k or so in the hole, that is out of the question.

------------------
Chris Rhode

chrisrhode@hotmail.com

My reputation preceeds me..... in fact, it arrived about 45 years ago!