This is topic No DTS Disks=Bad Movie? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 05-06-2000, 08:04 AM:
In the past two weeks, I've gotten in two prints from major studios that do not have the DTS time code. Is adding the time code and burning the disks that big an expense that it doesn't make it worth it for some films? Actually, the bigger question is-does Sony have absolutely no faith in "I Dreamed Of Africa", and Fox in "Where The Heart Is". Obviously with one DTS setup, I'm going to play "Gladiator" in there, and neither of these films, but it's nice to have the choice.
Can we now assume that if we open the film cans on Thursday and there's no DTS disks, that the studio thinks the film sucks, and expects it to probably tank? Damn, even "Screwed" in in DTS-how do Sony, Fox, and Paramount determine which films are worthy of this extra expense?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-06-2000, 08:10 AM:
Thats the main reason we really only push SRD systems in general to our customers. The day it takes after you call in to tell your distributer/whoever that the disks are missing could mean that you will be missing the digital track on the opening/biggest night of the new release. SRD really has become the universal digital track of todays films. I also see it on more and more artsy type and foreign films too.
Mark
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-06-2000, 02:45 PM:
I have to agree with Mark. Although I prefer the sound quality and reliability of DTS, Dolby Digital is much more universal. If I had my way, every auditorium would have both DTS and SRD. Play in DTS when you can, unless you have a double and must switch discs each show, if a feature doesn't come with DTS, or if the discs are bad (it happens).
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-06-2000, 04:10 PM:
My ideal booth would have all SRD and a few roaming DTS machines for use on those very occasional DTS only prints and for when a print comes in with a defective SRD track. I agree with Joe DTS sounds a bit better, but Mark's hit it right on the money SRD is the format to push for on installs. However, I still prefer a DA20 with a CP65 over a loaded CP500 for sound quality.And yes Tom, generally that means the movie is crap.
Posted by Nic Margherio (Member # 273) on 05-06-2000, 06:06 PM:
Few things irk me more than to see an attached trailer carry all three digital formats only to drop two of them (SDDS and DTS in the case of "Where the Heart Is") at the start of the reel. Do the studios really think they can influence an exhibitor's decision as to what digital sound format to use? I know Universal contributed to the success of DTS by using it exclusively for years, but they did that with big movies like "Jurassic Park" and "Lost World" - movies that you would regret not presenting in digital, but "Where the Heart Is"?!?!? Come on Fox, your only hurting yourselves by not allowing exibitors to offer the best possible presentation of YOUR movie.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-06-2000, 07:54 PM:
It is funny for I very rarely ever have canadian theatres not getting the DTS disks at opening or even at the second run theatres
I usually still feel for second run theatres DTS is a better choice becuse it is not bothered by print wear raising the error rate
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-06-2000, 09:13 PM:
Joe, I definately agree that DTS sounds better....but you really have to be in a theater that has a darn good system to tell the difference. I'd say that at the average Cineplex/General Cinema you would not be able to distinguish between the two.
Selling SRD only booths has not been a problem. If you do have to play analog track, they sound so darn good scanned with an LED reader and decoded with real SR cards that sometimes even then its hard to tell if its analog or digital. True Lies was one film that comes to mind as its SR track was superb. Going to Digital really only gave you the added benefit of descrete seperation and more going on in the surrounds.
I have not had any problems with excessively high error rate in 2nd run situations.....no more problems than say with brand new prints being occasionally defective.
These are all Cat 700/701 installations though. I have had trouble with basement readers..mainly in Christies. But no trouble with basement readers in Century/Simplex other than them getting dirty once in a while.
Mark
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-07-2000, 04:11 AM:
I understand Christie has given up the sale of basement readers for thieir projectors. Now it's penthouse or nothing.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2000, 10:12 AM:
Its really a shame, as it can work but just gets full of snow over a short period of time. This necessitates taking it all apart and cleaning/realignment. Plus they still don't have the soundhead problems totally straightened out either. If they would only go to round tooth double sided timmng belts!!*&#%$!! That would take care of most of the problem.
Mark
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-07-2000, 10:52 AM:
Actually Christies pivot point damper is already borrowing some of the eprad soundhead design so I have sort of wondered why not steal the hole thing with a ptr type scanner and the whiffle tree
When set up they worked very well just the manufactureing tolerance were not the best
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2000, 02:36 PM:
Gord,
The whole problem with the Christie GP version is the fact that they use standard square tooth X-L type belts, and one is two sided. If they went to rounded tooth belts this problem would all disappear. Strong went that way finally on the 5 star after years of problems. My older P35 Ser# 47 does not have any wow and flutter problem at all. Most likely due to the fact that there are only single sided belts in the machine. You compound the problem when you go double sided as they have chosen to do as the pitch of the belt is slightly different on one side than the other. Personally the older Christie P35 machines are hard to beat and as steady as a Motiograph AA. Wow and flutter on mine dips to just under .09%. That's darn good. Only the Kalee soundhead measures lower at around .07%.
Mark
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-07-2000, 02:57 PM:
Cinemecanica and Ernaman machines do no use round tooth belts and have no problems with excessive wow and flutter and chrisites problems with the damper didn't materialise until the advent of the thinner estar prints
The jitter that the dras10 reads is far less on a acetate print than it is on the estar print
The basic problem is that Kelmar (who designed the machine) just didn't understand all the problems of dynamic feedback that are inherent in the Davis tight loop design
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2000, 08:07 PM:
Gord,
I think yuo missed the point of my posting. Its the fact that they use a double sided square tooth timming belt. The difference in circumfrance from one side to the other causes a slight pitch difference on a given curve of the belt. This generates a ripple even worse than sprocket tooth ripple that cannot be filtered out by the rotary stabilizer. Estar and acetate both run fine on my older Christie P35 that has the shutter gearbox. There is also a measureable difference on the 5 star with square/vs. round tooth timming belts. The round tooth spec flutter is much lower. I have measured all these myself. I'd bet that regardless of whos machine uses square tooth belts, going to round tooth belts will allow some improvement in flutter measurements. Round tooth belts are also stronger as well.
Mark
Posted by Curtis Barnes (Member # 471) on 05-07-2000, 09:13 PM:
OK, I am new to this forum, but obviously I am not the only one with severe problems with the Christie Dolby Digital readers. If a round tooth belt design would work, then why don't they use it? The solution just seems too simple to me.My solution is even more simple: Just don't buy Christie.
Posted by Jason R. Weinsteiger (Member # 456) on 05-07-2000, 10:19 PM:
You think that's weird? We got a print of "The Emperor And The Assassin," a subtitled Chinese film and it was advertised as being in DTS, the only digital system we have. We get it..it has a DTS strip on the film..it says DTS at the end of the credits..but no discs. We called about it, and apparently they just decided not to make the discs.Now it cannot be that expensive to burn 2 CDs. i buy blank CDs for 60 cents each and that's at small quantity. Not only that, but if they took the time to make the strip on the side of the film, why not make the discs?
hmm...
jasoN
------------------
"That's what life is - a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of muppets." -Dante Hicks
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-08-2000, 02:11 AM:
Jason Said:" but if they took the time to make the strip on the side of the film, why not make the discs?"
If the film has a viable DTS timecode and the credits say that it had DTS sound, then there ARE discs available for it! First thing to do is to CALL DTS (NOT the distributor, or you'll get the discs a week after the playdate) Ask for Karen Hultgren, she will do her best to make sure a set of discs get to your theatre expeditiously. Even for some of the more 'off the wall' prints that sometimes pop up with DTS tracks.
Aaron
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-08-2000, 06:26 AM:
A little way back, our print of 'The Game' came with dts code, but no discs. When I enquired, I was told by the distributor that they hadn't imported and discs. 
------------------
"It's not the years honey, it's the mileage".
Indiana Jones.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-08-2000, 08:45 AM:
Yes the emperor was in DTS but not in English DTS
When we ran it in Toronto at the Cinesphere we have 2 DTS players (70mm failsafe)
We ran the Mandarin disks in one to the FM transmitter used for french imax films and the second one ran the canonese to the regular phonioc ear
The srd english ran in the theatre.
That is on of the major DTS advantages the smae print multilanguages
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 05-09-2000, 12:50 PM:
Hello Tom,If you need discs and don't get them, call the film distribuator. If that gets you no where, call us at (818) 706-3525 or within continental USA: 800-959-4109. We will have discs sent to you.
Karen at DTS
Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 05-09-2000, 02:19 PM:
First off I'd like to state that my dealings with DTS have been excellent-always helpful and friendly.
The point I was trying to make is there is no time code on "Africa", "Heart", and "Snow Day", therefore no disks are available. Why do some studios choose to release some films in DTS, while not others? If I produced or directed one of these films, I'd be quite upset. Who makes these decisions?
Posted by Reeve Byrne (Member # 295) on 05-09-2000, 03:37 PM:
That has happened to me a couple of time, not having any DTS disk, and having a DTS time code.------------------
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 05-12-2000, 06:50 PM:
Why are not all films released in DTS? We are working on it. Most major (big) studios are using DTS on all films. The few that are not (Fox, Sony, and Paramount) use us for at least 70% of their films. Destination Films has now signed on using us on their films, but I'm not sure of the percentage.The best way to know if a film will be released in DTS, is to check it out on our web site at www.dstonline.com under 'cinema'.
As far as some films having a timecode track but no discs, those are usually lab mistakes. Having the track but not getting discs only means you cannot play it in DTS. But you can play it in other sound foramts without causing any problems in playback.
Karen at DTS
Karen at DTS
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-15-2000, 06:53 AM:
Karen --- Since the DTS time code is on the sound negative supplied to the lab, it's not up to the lab as to whether prints have DTS time code or not. The presence of time code without disks is not a "lab mistake". I suspect that if prints have DTS time code without disks, the time code is there for another language version, or the distributor decided late in the game not to supply DTS disks.------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 05-15-2000, 03:01 PM:
Yes, there have been times, although not often when whomever at whatever lab has forgotten to turn off the timecode generator when starting to add the optical soundtrack to a new film. This can happen if the film just before it had DTS.To be fair, yes, there have been times when timecode has been added to a print for DTS digital release in a foreign venue and, for whatever reason, all prints were made w/a timecode track. That, too, doesn't happen often.
Karen at DTS
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-02-2001, 06:18 PM:
No DTS Disks=Bad Movie? That a load of 
Shadow of the Vampire has Malkovich -- Malkovich! -- and it's SDDS/SR only. Makes it even better if you saw it at AMC like I did 
The Anniversary Party is quite good and it's SRD/SR only. Memento was quite good and it's SRD/SR only.
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-05-2002, 05:42 PM:
Bumping this up for our newbies with the 2 latest examples:Has DTS timecode but no discs -- Hey Arnold!
SRD/SR/SDDS only -- Sunshine State
BTW, the stack ads and one-sheet for Sunshine State have the Dolby Digital logo but not the SDDS logo. 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-06-2002, 04:24 PM:
Judging whether a film is good or bad when it has no DTS discs really depends on the distributor and its release habits. I think Paramount's "Hey Arnold: The Movie" has Dolby Digital as the only digital audio track on the print. Normally Paramount includes both DTS and Dolby Digital on any major release. I don't know if the movie is any good or not, but usually whenever Paramount does a Dolby Digital-only print release the sound mix itself is usually very conservative. If the soundtrack really thumps and has a lot of surround activity Paramount will typically support both formats."Shadow of the Vampire" and "Memento" are both arguably art house films. It is kind of curious how both films omitted the use of DTS in the release prints, but both have DVDs that feature DTS audio tracks (the new 2-disc SE of "Memento" features a new DTS mix).
Several years ago there were many more films featuring only one of the three sound formats on the print. So back then a film like "The Fugitive," "The Lion King" or "Crimson Tide" could feature a Dolby Digital-only print containing a pretty aggressive surround track. I don't think that's the case anymore. Usually if a lot of work goes into the digital mix, a quad format print will be made these days.
But one thing I can't figure out: quad format on Woody Allen films. Yeah, I like hearing DTS in mono. Hehe.
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-07-2002, 01:28 AM:
In some cases when you have the timecode on the print and there are no disks. It could be do to the fact that something got changed after the disks had been printed up and rather press new disks they just do not issue them. I can see this happening on non potential blockbuster films.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-07-2002, 02:11 AM:
One thing I think happens with the cases of time code being on the print but no discs being made is that perhaps the film doesn't do well on test screenings.If a movie tests well, a distributor may spend more money to hype it up in the marketing. If not, they'll immediately find ways to cut the costs.
"Hey Arnold: The Movie" is just the latest film to have time code on the print but no discs made. I remember being mystified when Fox released "The Edge" years ago, featuring DTS time code on the print but no DTS discs being made for the feature.
Anyway, "Hey Arnold" isn't exactly drawing in the crowds. I got in a pretty interesting discussion about the duality of movie audiences and some of their bitch-rants regarding "there aren't enough films that are family oriented!" Well, IT IS THE AUDIENCES FAULT!!!! Geez. It is typical American behavior. Pawn something that is your own damned fault onto some other monolithical object, thing, group or whatever. The good theater in my town has family films out the wazoo booked, such as "Powerpuff Girls," "Like Mike," "Lilo and Stitch" and the aforementioned "Hey Arnold". The audiences aren't showing up to support these films.
The movie going public cannot have it both ways. They cannot bitch and whine about there not being enough family films when the only films they pay to see have blood flowing, bombs exploding and bare boobs bouncing all over the place! Hypocrites!
Anyway, that's why Paramound did not pay to have DTS discs made for "Hey Arnold: The Movie." They pretty much figured the movie would only do marginally well at best. If Arnold picked up an M-60 SAW rifle and started mowing down buildings and earn a PG-13 or R rating, the DTS discs might have gotten made.
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-07-2002, 12:27 PM:
Bobby: To keep this thread from drifting I've started a new thread on "Family fare" in Ground Level. Care to continue the discussion there?
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 07-08-2002, 12:31 PM:
When ordering a film, be sure to specify it in DTS. If you do not get discs, first call the distribuator and if you get no where, call us.For older films, it is very important to specify it in DTS.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 07-09-2002, 04:49 PM:
Bobby Henderson wrote:But one thing I can't figure out: quad format on Woody Allen films. Yeah, I like hearing DTS in mono. Hehe.
Woody Allen is on record of preferring MONO on his film releases, but wants the clarity of dialog to come across. Using SR is always risky, because many theatres (including all those I've been in) do NOT shut off the surrounds as he requests, resulting in sound leakage. By using the discrete digital formats, he can pretty much count on the sound coming from the center stage speaker, thereby increasing the dialog clarity he works hard on achieving. And he does MONO very well.